Greatest opener of the last 20 years?

[Shri]

Not so much wrong, just a bit ... juvenile I guess. .

But yeah, you're right, Ponting struggled in India. Had a wretched, scarcely believable series. But this is more of an anomaly than a flat out betrayal of weakness.

Sure, Ponting sometimes did struggle against spin. But he also improved drastically against it, and in full flow his playing of spin was just like his playing of everything else. Fantastic.

And more to the point, Ponting in his prime was consistently superlative. Good enough to seriously be compared to Lara and Tendulkar. Sehwag was a phenomena in his (physical and metaphorically) local setting. Smashing attacks on dead wickets was his specialist skill, and he did it better than anyone I've seen. Perhaps if he'd played at 4 or 5 he'd have been even better, but then we wouldn't be talking about him as an opener would we?

Point is, you bring Sehwag to England and put him on a bit of a hairy wicket, his stock plummets. As a supporter, I don't fear him like I would Ponting, or yes, even Justin bloody Langer.

To conclude, Ponting's weakness was against a specific team, in a specific setting, against a specific bowler. Sehwag's weakness significantly anywhere outside his remit of, shall we say, pitches unhelpful to the bowlers.

Spinning tracks are not dead tracks.

 

[Contra]

Well you may have a point here.

But I'd argue that the role of opener itself is diminished on the sub-continent. I've seen the ball refuse to do anything from the first delivery onwards.

So basically you haven't watched any match that's taken place on the sub-continent.

 

[Jono]

Well you may have a point here.

But I'd argue that the role of opener itself is diminished on the sub-continent. I've seen the ball refuse to do anything from the first delivery onwards.

Its a different role - you see teams go from 0/90 to 4/130 quickly in the subcontinent. The role of an opener is to make sure you kick on and don't open the middle order to spin.

 

[Jono]

Also I think the "fairweather" description of Hayden is unfair in the poll.

 

[Manshaj]

Sachin Tendulkar is one of my favorite cricketer . He is the greatest opener in the last 20 years. He is a very good player. Sehwag is also a great opener. But my my favorite is Sachin so I want to vote him .

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Sachin Tendulkar is one of my favorite cricketer . He is the greatest opener in the last 20 years. He is a very good player. Sehwag is also a great opener. But my my favorite is Sachin so I want to vote him .

Opened the batting 342 times in international cricket. WAFG, now changing my vote from Other to Other.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Also I think the "fairweather" description of Hayden is unfair in the poll.

Probably . But considering the fact that AB gets marked down so unfairly for some of the easy runs he's made, it's only fair to do the same to Hayden. Very close between him, Sehwag and Smith for the last few years imo

 

[Jono]

Nah not really. People who said Ab was a downhill skier were dickheads.

 

[Furball]

Probably . But considering the fact that AB gets marked down so unfairly for some of the easy runs he's made, it's only fair to do the same to Hayden. Very close between him, Sehwag and Smith for the last few years imo

Two things:

It's not fair to downgrade Hayden if the rest of the world's bowling attacks were a bit rubbish, and secondly, every other opener of Hayden's era had the opportunity to cash in against the same bowling attacks. None of them managed to do so to the extent that Hayden did.

 

[fredfertang]

I'm going to email James and demand the immediate dismissal of whichever mod is deleting all references to Mike Atherton in this thread - it is childish and trolling and won't alter the fact that everyone knows he's the best opener of the last 20 years - just live with it

 

[GIMH]

I'm going to email James and demand the immediate dismissal of whichever mod is deleting all references to Mike Atherton in this thread - it is childish and trolling and won't alter the fact that everyone knows he's the best opener of the last 20 years - just live with it

Hi Richard

 

[paulted]

What about Trescothick? When you consider the problems the fella had, its remarkable he ended with the career and batting record he has. A very brave man.

 

[fredfertang]

Hi Richard

Wrong - itbt my other account is C_C

 

[GIMH]

I shall just mull over that for a little while

 

[fredfertang]

I shall just mull over that for a little while

Why are you ghon to do that?

 

[Muloghonto]

I'm a fan of Sehwag - the Sehwag who bashed centuries, double centuries and triple centuries on the sub-continent.

But let's not pretend he was a bona fide test opener. He was a home specialist who only played at the top of the order because he couldn't get into the middle.

For this reason, listing him as the best opener in 20 years is facile.

On the contrary. A guy who is a specialist middle order bat, forced to open and ends up scoring centuries in every major test nation, striking at a stupendous rate- almost 30% better than the next regular opener, at an average of 50+, all the while not being a specialist at it, is definitely in consideration for being an alltime great opener, nevermind of the last 20 years.

 

[Muloghonto]

Not so much wrong, just a bit ... juvenile I guess. .

But yeah, you're right, Ponting struggled in India. Had a wretched, scarcely believable series. But this is more of an anomaly than a flat out betrayal of weakness.

Sure, Ponting sometimes did struggle against spin. But he also improved drastically against it, and in full flow his playing of spin was just like his playing of everything else. Fantastic.

And more to the point, Ponting in his prime was consistently superlative. Good enough to seriously be compared to Lara and Tendulkar. Sehwag was a phenomena in his (physical and metaphorically) local setting. Smashing attacks on dead wickets was his specialist skill, and he did it better than anyone I've seen. Perhaps if he'd played at 4 or 5 he'd have been even better, but then we wouldn't be talking about him as an opener would we?

Point is, you bring Sehwag to England and put him on a bit of a hairy wicket, his stock plummets. As a supporter, I don't fear him like I would Ponting, or yes, even Justin bloody Langer.

To conclude, Ponting's weakness was against a specific team, in a specific setting, against a specific bowler. Sehwag's weakness significantly anywhere outside his remit of, shall we say, pitches unhelpful to the bowlers.

This is just nonsense. Ponting visited India six times. his average during those series are: 13.50, 21.50, 3.40, 11.50, 38.00 and 56.00
Ponting played vs SL in SL in three tours. His average during that was 84.33, 33.00 and 31.00

His abysmal record in India stretches back from 96, when harbhajan was not even in the team and his abysmal record in SL coincides with Murali's prime.
IMO, Ponting has a far stronger case for being a fail at playing spin in spinning conditions because he has failed so many times in India. Whereas Sehwag has had far less experience in any single overseas country.

FYI, his record in England is 39.50 and 10.25 for just two series, his record in Australia is 58.00, 41.50,71.50 and 24.75,
his record in RSA is 49.66, 14.83 and 24.00, his record in NZ is 10.00 and 28.00, his record in West Indies is 51.00

As you can see, except for NZ, Sehwag has had atleast one series in every so-called 'seaming conditions that he cant play in' where he's either dominated or done competently ( 39-40 average for an opener in England is benchmark for competent performance). In terms of successful series played, Sehwag has 50% success rate in England, 75% success rate in Australia, 33.33% success rate in RSA , 100% success rate in West Indies and 0% success rate in NZ.

Ponting on the other hand, has a 33% success rate in Sri Lanka and 16.66% success rate in India.

I'd definitely trust Sehwag's opening skills against seam far more than Ponting's skills against spin on spin-friendly surfaces.

Oh and neither Ponting, nor Kallis are good enough to be compared to Lara or Sachin. I rate Dravid higher than both of them, for the simple fact that both Ponting and Kallis made their debuts in 96.

Till 2001, Ponting's record was 3182 runs @ 44.19 from 72 dismissals, amassing 36.82 average against England, 34.93 against India, 63.20 vs Pakistan, 43.62 vs South Africa and 40.00 vs West Indies.

After 2001, when the likes of Donald, Ambrose, Walsh, Gough, Caddick, Fraser were all either sidelined or retired, we see Ponting's record mushroom. In the period when there were excellent bowling lineups going around, Ponting only had real success against Pakistan, while being barely competent against South Africa and West Indies.
This was a period when only 5 players averaged 50+: Tendulkar, Lara, Steve Waugh, Andy Flower and Rahul Dravid.

Once we see a significantly weaker English, Saffie and West Indian attack, do we see Ponting dominate pace attacks. Same is the case with Jaques Kallis, where he too went into 'overdrive' once the bowling attacks fell away significantly after 2001/2002.

This is statistically supported as well, since after 2001/2002, we have Hayden,Langer, Tendulkar, Ponting, Clarke, Hussey, Amla, ABDV, Kallis, Sangakkara, Jayawardene, Yousuf, Younis Khan, Lara, Chanderpaul and probably a few others who averaged 50+.

So no, neither Ponting, nor Kallis are actually comparable to Lara or Tendulkar. They did not shine, despite numerous opportunities, in an era where bowling quality was high. They shone excellently when the bowling quality worldwide was rubbish and yes, they did bash more runs against mediocre attacks than the likes of Lara or Tendulkar did.
But the entire point of ATG comparisons and merit for being in an ATG lineup, is performance against ATG sides/attacks. Bashing minnows or average attacks to bits is kind of irrelevant to facing up to 4 ATG bowlers. On that accord, Ponting and Kallis are far, far behind Lara or Tendulkar.

 

[Red]

and yes, they did bash more runs against mediocre attacks than the likes of Lara or Tendulkar did.
.

Look, I'm a big fan of Tendulkar, but to suggest that Ponting had more opportunities than him to play against the weaker nations is just straight up wrong.

 

[Furball]

Look, I'm a big fan of Tendulkar, but to suggest that Ponting had more opportunities than him to play against the weaker nations is just straight up wrong.

Imagine how much Tendulkar could have averaged if he'd faced India's "bowlers" over the course of his career.

No wonder people think he was better than Bradman, he'd surely have averaged about 150.

 

[Hooksey]

Could find Warner in the list

Settled for Hayden.