Your top ten TEST bowlers of ALL-TIME

[watson]

i would be interested in knowing who Richie Benaud's top 10 pace bowlers will be.

Also would be interested in knowing Chappell's top 10 since he just loves attacking bowlers. Ian Chappell's top 10 probably read something like

Lillee
.
.
.
.
.
.
Hadlee
Wasim
etc

Benaud's selected Imran, Lillee, and Barnes as the 3 pace bowlers in his ATG XI.

In selecting Lillee and Barnes he discarded Lindwall, Trueman, McGrath, and Larwood who were on his shortlist.

Imran was the preferred bowling allrounder out of Miller, Hadlee, Botham, and Kapil Dev.

So I think that we can guess a Benaud Top 7 as being;

Lillee
Barnes
Imran
Lindwall
Trueman
McGrath
Larwood

Obviously not a fan of the modern West Indian quicks.

 

[smash84]

yeah, he doesn't have any of the WI pacers. I reckon one of them might make his top 10 though.

I think it is difficult to guess what order he would place them in but I reckon Lillee would be at the top. The rest I am not too sure.

 

[watson]

yeah, he doesn't have any of the WI pacers. I reckon one of them might make his top 10 though.

I think it is difficult to guess what order he would place them in but I reckon Lillee would be at the top. The rest I am not too sure.

From memory, I'm pretty sure that Richie considered Andy Roberts to be the best of the West Indian quicks. So he'd probably be in the Top 10 somewhere.

 

[Eds]

I don't see why Marshall or McGrath or any better than Ambrose, Lindwall, Waqar or Lillee (and quite a few others).

As I've said, give me any 3 of the top 15 and I'll be happy.

I think enough has been said about Marshall for me not to comment. There's lots of reasons why he's the best ever - can you give me a reason why he shouldn't be?

As for Pigeon and Ambrose, their records are just fantastic everywhere. Incredible peaks (three year periods of average around 18), and there isn't a country they didn't do well in. McGrath in particular was just extraordinarily consistent and if I were choosing someone to face an ATG batting lineup, I know he'd deliver at an incredibly high standard.

Compare that to Lindwall who, admittedly with a small sample size, averaged 27.59 in Asia and 31.85 in the West Indies. Next is Waqar who just flat out wasn't as good a bowler - for the last 9 years of his career (which is approximately two thirds of his entire career) he averaged 28 in Tests. I understand he's revered by some for that incredible peak in his early career but he just didn't sustain it long enough, for me. I won't go on but there's similar points to be made for almost every other first bowler that's been mentioned. However, Marshall, Ambrose, McGrath -- for me, they're different.

 

[smash84]

. However, Marshall, Ambrose, McGrath -- for me, they're different.

What about Imran and Hadlee? Why wouldn't they match up to the 3 of them?

 

[Slifer]

One of the reasons I respect Benaud as a commentator and for his knowledge of the game, but as far as his take on WI quicks, well he can shove it tbh. He wasn't a fan of their relentless aggression and thought that they were a unit (which they were) but to not even mention one is ridiculous. The irony of course being that his favorite fast bowler Dennis Lillee was as relentless and as aggressive as they come; hypocrite!!!

 

[smash84]

I think enough has been said about Marshall for me not to comment. There's lots of reasons why he's the best ever - can you give me a reason why he shouldn't be?

As for Pigeon and Ambrose, their records are just fantastic everywhere. Incredible peaks (three year periods of average around 18), and there isn't a country they didn't do well in. McGrath in particular was just extraordinarily consistent and if I were choosing someone to face an ATG batting lineup, I know he'd deliver at an incredibly high standard.

/QUOTE]

Imran and Hadlee have very similar records. Imran's bowling peak is the greatest peak of all bowlers post world war II and he averages under 30 in every country that he bowled. Hadlee has a very similar record. So how then would you say that they Ambrose and McGrath are significantly better?

 

[smash84]

One of the reasons I respect Benaud as a commentator and for his knowledge of the game, but as far as his take on WI quicks, well he can shove it tbh. He wasn't a fan of their relentless aggression and thought that they were a unit (which they were) but to not even mention one is ridiculous. The irony of course being that his favorite fast bowler Dennis Lillee was as relentless and as aggressive as they come; hypocrite!!!

Has Benaud ever made public his views on the WI quicks?

 

[Slifer]

I used to listen to him intently when he used to comment whenever WI played Oz (or Eng) and he was not a fan of their relentless bowling to say the least. Of course trying to be neutral he gave them credit where is was due but I got the sense deep down he wasn't their biggest fan.

 

[smash84]

he is a big fan of Viv and Sobers though not to mention Wes hall

 

[Eds]

What about Imran and Hadlee? Why wouldn't they match up to the 3 of them?

Hadlee - I'm not quite old enough to have watched him regularly and as such others' opinions make up a large part of my own. By those who've seen him and other bowling greats bowl, he's never mentioned in that top echelon that we're referring to. He's got a fantastic record but so have McGrath, Ambrose and Marshall, who are almost always mentioned in regards to that top tier.

Imran - The home/away thing is enough to take him out of the top bracket. 19 at home, 26 away. Not the mark of one of the top three greatest bowlers of all-time, for me.

 

[paulted]

Sydney Barnes-apparently unplayable
Malcolm Marshall-ouch! injuries everywhere
Richard Hadlee-the inquisitor
Michael Holding-what the????!!!
Muttiah Muralitharan-wrongly misjudged
Colin Croft-BONKERS!
Wasim Akram-abracadabra!
Roy Gilchrist-almost unknown but a bad, bad man
Dennis Lillee-Skill and always 100%
George Lohmann-taken too soon
Bryce McGain- SORRY FOLKS. JUST COULDN'T RESIST

 

[smash84]

Hadlee - I'm not quite old enough to have watched him regularly and as such others' opinions make up a large part of my own. By those who've seen him and other bowling greats bowl, he's never mentioned in that top echelon that we're referring to. He's got a fantastic record but so have McGrath, Ambrose and Marshall, who are almost always mentioned in regards to that top tier.

Imran - The home/away thing is enough to take him out of the top bracket. 19 at home, 26 away. Not the mark of one of the top three greatest bowlers of all-time, for me.

Which experts mention McGrath in the top tier? He is always overshadowed by Lillee. McGrath is very highly rated on CW mostly.

 

[Eds]

Which experts mention McGrath in the top tier? He is always overshadowed by Lillee. McGrath is very highly rated on CW mostly.

Most on CW have watched McGrath play cricket. They've got as much right to an opinion on him as the 'experts'. It's a different matter for lots of other bowlers throughout history.

 

[smash84]

Most on CW have watched McGrath play cricket. They've got as much right to an opinion on him as the 'experts'. It's a different matter for lots of other bowlers throughout history.

yeah but most on CW haven't watched Lillee bowl. When you said people who've seen him and other bowling greats I thought you also included (along with Hadlee) McG, Marshall, and Ambrose. And those who saw Lillee bowl and also saw McGrath tend to lean towards Lillee.

 

[Red]

I think enough has been said about Marshall for me not to comment. There's lots of reasons why he's the best ever - can you give me a reason why he shouldn't be?

As for Pigeon and Ambrose, their records are just fantastic everywhere. Incredible peaks (three year periods of average around 18), and there isn't a country they didn't do well in. McGrath in particular was just extraordinarily consistent and if I were choosing someone to face an ATG batting lineup, I know he'd deliver at an incredibly high standard.

Compare that to Lindwall who, admittedly with a small sample size, averaged 27.59 in Asia and 31.85 in the West Indies. Next is Waqar who just flat out wasn't as good a bowler - for the last 9 years of his career (which is approximately two thirds of his entire career) he averaged 28 in Tests. I understand he's revered by some for that incredible peak in his early career but he just didn't sustain it long enough, for me. I won't go on but there's similar points to be made for almost every other first bowler that's been mentioned. However, Marshall, Ambrose, McGrath -- for me, they're different.

I do agree McGrath and Marshall have the consistency across the board against all opponents and in all conditions, and long term. In my head, that sets them apart very so slightly. But there are arguments to be made for all the others.

I don't think there'd be any great advantage to a team having McGrath or Marshall than there would be having Hadlee, Lillee or Wasim.

 

[Eds]

I do agree McGrath and Marshall have the consistency across the board against all opponents and in all conditions, and long term. In my head, that sets them apart very so slightly. But there are arguments to be made for all the others.

I don't think there'd be any great advantage to a team having McGrath or Marshall than there would be having Hadlee, Lillee or Wasim.

At test level, maybe not, but in this hypothetical level above where they bowl against an ATG batting lineup, I think the differences would be exaggerated.

Much like the fact that Ryan Harris and Glenn McGrath would be a very similar level in club cricket, despite McGrath being the much better bowler.

 

[Red]

yeah but most on CW haven't watched Lillee bowl. When you said people who've seen him and other bowling greats I thought you also included (along with Hadlee) McG, Marshall, and Ambrose. And those who saw Lillee bowl and also saw McGrath tend to lean towards Lillee.

I think Lillee is romanticized ever so slightly. He was almost the ultimate fast bowler in terms of aggression, intimidation, style and swagger. McGrath obviously did his thing with extraordinary results and incredibly consistently. Nothing separates them in a big way in my head, but I'd choose Lillee because I really rate some of his attributes.

 

[Red]

At test level, maybe not, but in this hypothetical level above where they bowl against an ATG batting lineup, I think the differences would be exaggerated.

Much like the fact that Ryan Harris and Glenn McGrath would be a very similar level in club cricket, despite McGrath being the much better bowler.

I don't think that analogy (club cricket) works tbh. Either of McGrath or Harris would likely rip through a club team nearly 100% of the time.

Let's be honest, the gap between Harris and McGrath (or Hadlee or whoever) at test level isn't even that different. Harris troubles elite batsmen in test cricket, there's no reason to think he wouldn't trouble Jack Hobbs or Sunny Gavaskar.

 

[Red]

I guess my point is that a guy like Andy Bichel of Kaspa (who were fringe-ish test players) would still compete in an ATG fantasy game, and would highly likely take wickets. The gap at the elite level is only very marginal.