***Official*** India in New Zealand 2013/14

[ohnoitsyou]

And can you please give a weather update in the WI thread? Thanks.

Nah im out of Hamilton atm sorry, but it is sunny with a few clouds in the BOP

 

[hendrix]

Right, and Jacque Kallis was averaging less than 25 with the bat and over 40 with the ball at similar points in their careers. Tim Southee only got his average under 40 about a season or two ago, judging a guy from twelve tests strewn across four seasons is pretty stupid. And as previously pointed out, 80% of his wickets have come against top order batsmen. He gets the hard wickets and tends to do it every series, hence why his leading dismissals are Trott, Pietersen, Bell and Chanderpaul.

Yes, I well and truly understand that his test career is far from conclusive just yet, but what we can see so far:

1. His pace is 125-135kph. He's not the out-and-out quick we were promised. He's also not tall, so he doesn't get it to rise from a length like other medium pacers can.
2. He struggles with seam presentation.
3. He only rarely gets swing, even when given the ball under 10 overs old. Sometimes he gets a bit of reverse.
4. He's prone to struggling with his line and length.

Southee, at the same stage of his career:
1. Pace about the same, but he was much taller and got the ball to jump.
2. Seam presentation was beautiful, really nice outswing.
3. Often sprayed the ball around and thus got pasted. Was beating batsmen but not putting the ball in the right spot consistently enough for test cricket.

i.e. there was great promise shown. I'm not really seeing much to get excited about with Wagner, but I'd love for him to improve and succeed.

 

[Jono]

Weird thread so far, must be said. And what the **** is Sledger doing in here? GTFO.

I'll change topic by letting everyone know, despite no one caring, that I just booked my accommodation for the Wellington test

 

[Blocky]

Maybe I am one of those people but at least I know the difference between new ball and reverse swing :face:

Milne's arm plane is uniform pretty much every ball. Therefore using this thing called logic, him not being able to swing the ball consistently must be due to one or both of grip or seam presentation but one thing is for sure and that's that he swings the ball more consistently than Wagner. Also remember we are not talking about a stock ball, but a variation that goes the other way. It will never move as much as the conventional inswinger (to the right hander) as I have maintained from the outset, but it doesn't have to in order to be threatening.

You don't play cricket in Wellington by any chance do you?

Key Word - Consistent Swing.

Yes, Milne can and has swung a ball, but he can't do it consistently, even when conditions suit - a lot of this comes down to the plane of his arm during his delivery stride. Trying to say he swings the ball as much as Wagner makes me laugh, because we've seen Wagner have no problems swinging the ball at NZ level, let alone first class level. Wagner does it with a white, red, duke, whatever ball you want. Milne can sometimes get the red Kook to swing, but not the white Kook and more often than not, he struggles to get any swing when bowling.

Adverse to Hamish Bennett, same pace, completely different action, yet similar seam presentation. Why does Bennett get good in-swing and Milne struggles to move it at all? Have a look at the plane of Bennett's arm - windmill action or not, much more suitable for developing inswing irregardless of a wobbly seam or not.

 

[hendrix]

Trying to say he swings the ball as much as Wagner makes me laugh, because we've seen Wagner have no problems swinging the ball at NZ level, let alone first class level. Wagner does it with a white, red, duke, whatever ball you want. .

Again, it feels like you haven't watched cricket for the last year or so.

 

[Blocky]

Yes, I well and truly understand that his test career is far from conclusive just yet, but what we can see so far:

1. His pace is 125-135kph. He's not the out-and-out quick we were promised. He's also not tall, so he doesn't get it to rise from a length like other medium pacers can.
2. He struggles with seam presentation.
3. He only rarely gets swing, even when given the ball under 10 overs old. Sometimes he gets a bit of reverse.
4. He's prone to struggling with his line and length.

Southee, at the same stage of his career:
1. Pace about the same, but he was much taller and got the ball to jump.
2. Seam presentation was beautiful, really nice outswing.
3. Often sprayed the ball around and thus got pasted. Was beating batsmen but not putting the ball in the right spot consistently enough for test cricket.

i.e. there was great promise shown. I'm not really seeing much to get excited about with Wagner, but I'd love for him to improve and succeed.

Southee wasn't taking the type of wickets that Wagner was taking, Southee also didn't have a captain saying "We love having Wagner in the team, he provides us a different option and will run in and attack batsmen all day long" - Southee had a captain saying "****, drop him" until Allan Donald and subsequently Shane Bond got Southee bowling better.

Wagner was never "an out and out quick" - he was a swing bowler who consistently got the ball to reverse, had great control of his lengths and could bowl long spells. So far, he's not really being given long spells by his captain and quite regularly, McCullum will throw the ball to a guy like Sodhi for the tail end to try and boost his confidence so he's not exactly getting much chance at the tail end, something that undoubtedly has increased Southee's average.

Go do a side by side comparison of Wagner to any other quick not named Bond or Boult for top order dismissals versus lower order dismissals, he has an amazingly high percentage of top order wickets for a seamer.

 

[Blocky]

Again, it feels like you haven't watched cricket for the last year or so.

Yup, I guess despite ESPNCricinfo, the NZ Almanack, Bond himself and most of the first class players all saying that Wagner is best known for his ability to swing the new ball and then come back and swing the old ball that we should trust you. "You haven't watched cricket for the last year or so" - I guarantee you I've been at more first class matches this year than you have. And I'm not just looking at the video replay of dismissals on NZCricket to make up my mind on whether or not a bowler is performing well.

Why does Milne have a terrible record against top order players? Why can't he even buy a wicket in ODI cricket despite his pace? Because the guy doesn't move a cricket ball consistently, has no control and funnily for a guy who bowls so express, doesn't seem to hurry batsmen at all.

Yet we've seen Wagner hurry up Pietersen, Chanderpaul, Trott, Bell, Gayle.

 

[hendrix]

I don't get what Milne has to do with any of this.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Wagner having great control over his lengths

Hey Albi, I worked it all out, he's ex Boys High

 

[Blocky]

Wagner having great control over his lengths

Hey Albi, I worked it all out, he's ex Boys High

Yeah, I guess a guy able to land 6 yorkers and take a first class record of five wickets in an over has terrible control of his length.

And no, I'm no Scott Kuggelign - nice try though.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Funny that when I went down to watch CD-ND Milne was beating the ND top order for pace every single ball. Also funny that he swinging the ball a mile every single ball, and I was standing right by the sightscreen so I would know. Also funny that their where as many plays and misses in that spell as Wagner gets in an entire game.

Wagner gets top order wickets because international batsmen forget he's a lion hearted south African and instead treat him like he was Andy Ellis.

 

[Blocky]

Funny that when I went down to watch CD-ND Milne was beating the ND top order for pace every single ball. Also funny that he swinging the ball a mile every single ball, and I was standing right by the sightscreen so I would know. Also funny that their where as many plays and misses in that spell as Wagner gets in an entire game.

Wagner gets top order wickets because international batsmen forget he's a lion hearted south African and instead treat him like he was Andy Ellis.

Please, that pitch was laughable and I'd have backed my old injured ass to beat the batsmen. CD didn't even make 100 in their first innings, "swinging the ball a mile every ball" - learn the difference between seam and swing.

 

[hendrix]

Please, that pitch was laughable and I'd have backed my old injured ass to beat the batsmen. CD didn't even make 100 in their first innings, "swinging the ball a mile every ball" - learn the difference between seam and swing.

seriously, shut the **** up. You haven't watched cricket.
We have watched A tour and last season domestic footage of Adam Milne. We have categorically seen him swinging the red and white ball.
It's not something he had as an 18 year old. It is something he has now.

Bond hasn't just been bowling to Eric Murray for the past 2 years. He's been working with these players. Particularly Milne.

Kippax to re-upload the vids of Milne swinging it both ways, please.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

I'll change topic by letting everyone know, despite no one caring, that I just booked my accommodation for the Wellington test

What day are you going?

I'll make sure I'm out of town for that day.

If you've got a five day pass, then may God have Mercy on us all.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

It's another case of guess the identity of some Kiwi cricketer.

Are you Bob Cunis?

 

[Blocky]

seriously, shut the **** up. You haven't watched cricket.
We have watched A tour and last season domestic footage of Adam Milne. We have categorically seen him swinging the red and white ball.
It's not something he had as an 18 year old. It is something he has now.

Bond hasn't just been bowling to Eric Murray for the past 2 years. He's been working with these players. Particularly Milne.

Kippax to re-upload the vids of Milne swinging it both ways, please.

con·sis·tent (kn-sstnt)
adj.
1. In agreement; compatible: The testimony was consistent with the known facts.
2. Being in agreement with itself; coherent and uniform: a consistent pattern of behavior.
3. Reliable; steady: demonstrated a consistent ability to impress the critics.
4. Mathematics Having at least one common solution, as of two or more equations or inequalities.
5. Holding true as a group; not contradictory: a consistent set of statements.

Something Milne and "swing" are not, which is probably why you're getting so aggressive and annoyed and why I'm so calm.

 

[Blocky]

It's another case of guess the identity of some Kiwi cricketer.

Are you Bob Cunis?

Yes, I'm the ghost of Bob Cunis.

 

[hendrix]

con·sis·tent (kn-sstnt)
adj.
1. In agreement; compatible: The testimony was consistent with the known facts.
2. Being in agreement with itself; coherent and uniform: a consistent pattern of behavior.
3. Reliable; steady: demonstrated a consistent ability to impress the critics.
4. Mathematics Having at least one common solution, as of two or more equations or inequalities.
5. Holding true as a group; not contradictory: a consistent set of statements.

Something Milne and "swing" are not, which is probably why you're getting so aggressive and annoyed and why I'm so calm.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Please, that pitch was laughable and I'd have backed my old injured ass to beat the batsmen. CD didn't even make 100 in their first innings, "swinging the ball a mile every ball" - learn the difference between seam and swing.

Yeah cause the ball never swings on green tops, never mind that the humidity was through the roof and it felt like it was going to break out into rain any minute

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

And no, I'm no Scott Kuggelign - nice try though.

Yes, I'm the ghost of Bob Cunis.

Well, you have to be one or the other, surely?