***Official*** India in New Zealand 2013/14

[hendrix]

Boult doesn't genuinely swing the ball both ways, he has a very good ball that seams across the right hand batsman, but he doesn't possess a ball that actually swings in the air towards the left handed player. Having played against Boult a number of times at representitive and club level, I can guarantee you he has no shapeto bowl a traditional inswinger to the left handed batsman.

This is straight up wrong. It's been confirmed, on video footage in the away series vs England that he was bowling a ball that conventionally swung into the left hander. The seam was positioned in the opposite way to his away swinger to the left hander.

Kippax's videos of Boult in England have been taken down by youtube, but those who watched that series closely saw it. It looks like it was only developed in early 2013 so you wouldn't have seen it when you played against him.

 

[Shri]

The guys you are about to play just handled Steyn and Philander very well for three innings out of four and gave free wickets to Robbie ****ing Peterson. Build pressure with the fast bowlers and play a decent spinner for wickets imo.

 

[Kippax]

Southee/Boult at Lord's and Leeds - YouTube

Nah, you naive fans, you're just too far from the play. You probably didn't even see it when Jesse defended Matt Henry's opening overs this late...

 

[Blocky]

Show me any example of him bowling this.

I think you're mistaking the ball he bowls that seams across and goes on with his natural line for a delivery that swings, even in English conditions the balls you guys are saying were inswingers were actually seam up and following on the natural movement across the batsman and seaming slightly away.

 

[hendrix]

Show me any example of him bowling this.

I think you're mistaking the ball he bowls that seams across and goes on with his natural line for a delivery that swings, even in English conditions the balls you guys are saying were inswingers were actually seam up and following on the natural movement across the batsman and seaming slightly away.

in Kippax's video:
3:13, 3:49, 4:00, 4:06 swung a mile, 4:14 is a close up of it with the ball clearly positioned for the out swinger to the right hander.

 

[Blocky]

Yeah, take the ball he beats Cook with at about 4:02 - have a look at the seam position, it's not shaping towards the slips for a right handed batsman, it's shaping straight up and down the wicket. There is one delivery that does seem to swing across the batsman, but the ones that are going across largely are starting straight, hitting the pitch and veering away.

And despite consistent swing against the Windies, he never once managed to bring the ball back in to Chanderpaul the way

 

[hendrix]

Yeah, take the ball he beats Cook with at about 4:02 - have a look at the seam position, it's not shaping towards the slips for a right handed batsman, it's shaping straight up and down the wicket. There is one delivery that does seem to swing across the batsman, but the ones that are going across largely are starting straight, hitting the pitch and veering away.

And despite consistent swing against the Windies, he never once managed to bring the ball back in to Chanderpaul the way

look at 4:14 and tell me that that's not a genuine out swinger.

And yes, he did bring the ball back in to the left handers on occasion. He just isn't yet accurate enough with it yet. Also, Chanderpaul wasn't in against the new ball early enough.

 

[hendrix]

and another one: 5:23 from around the wicket. You can clearly see that the shiny side is towards the leg side and the seam is positioned towards first slip.

Genuine out swinger.

 

[SteveNZ]

The part I find most interesting is the part where Mitch hasn't been used effectively. This fairly well confirms you as someone who reads a bunch of numbers on a computer screen and jumps to conclusions. Mitch averages 16 with the ball for Auckland, so I'd imagine Hoppy has done alright. Yes his RPO is 6, but he bowls in powerplays at both ends of the innings.

His FC record is hard to judge, as he's done the majority of his bowling on a lifeless Eden Park #2 wicket of late, which also has a heavy outfield that he finds cumbersome to run in on. Even then, he's produced some decent spells. In the season he came back from injury, he averaged 28 at Colin Maiden (and elsewhere) and took 8-for on that pitch. I'm the biggest fan of the guy running around but he'll need to put up more numbers on an A tour to be in the mix. He probably would've been picked for the Test series at home to England last summer, but broke down in the last ODI. I wouldn't call him 'exceedingly fast' either - I think a lot of people have him mistaken as a raw paceman who produces bounce and skittles guys with heat. That's just not true. He's actually a very shrewd bowler who mixes up his lengths and pace very well, which doesn't necessarily correlate to a Test career just yet. He's still working with his body whether he can bowl 140+ day in, day out and that answer is probably not at the moment.

You may well have a point that Jesse is just as well equipped as anyone to open. But I think most of us would hold the opinion that his greatest position for output of runs is #5. He's not a natural opener, and not one that is used to play opener-style innings against world-class oppositions. Yes sure, he might make 20-30 just as regularly as Fulton/Rutherford do, have better techniques than both of them and average slightly more. But he's better suited at 5 - I doubt we'd get the best out of Jesse as an opener. I'd be very surprised if he averaged 40+ there.

Ps I presume you mean Wagner gets reverse quicker, as in he can achieve it quicker (not quicker through the air) than Southee. I can assure you there's a reason for that. If the ball was 80% seam he'd still miss it, and not worry about doing so given he still pines for the day he slid 5 past Wellington in an over.

 

[Blocky]

Seam is straight up and down, no movement until the ball pitched and then it decked away slightly. Where is the swing in 5:23? For me, that's simply the ball he bowls that maintains its line and has a chance at seaming - straight up and down, shine on the opposite side to negate the usual swing he would get with his action and decking away slightly when it pitches.

You do know the difference between swing and seam, right?

 

[SteveNZ]

Seam is straight up and down, no movement until the ball pitched and then it decked away slightly. Where is the swing in 5:23? For me, that's simply the ball he bowls that maintains its line and has a chance at seaming - straight up and down, shine on the opposite side to negate the usual swing he would get with his action and decking away slightly when it pitches.

You do know the difference between swing and seam, right?

Mate, I think everyone is trying to be pretty respectful towards you. But if you think 4.15 in particular shows no movement until it pitches, I don't know what to say. I'm sure if you admit that does appear to be an outswinger (to RH) and you hadn't seen it/the Dukes make it more pronounced - therefore it wasn't particularly seen in NZ with the Kooka - we'd all move on.

 

[hendrix]

You do know the difference between swing and seam, right?

ffs, how can you look at 4:14 and tell me that that's seam?

We all saw it, the commentators and Trent himself talked about it after the match. He was actually too excited about it and was using it too much rather than using it as a surprise delivery.

 

[Bahnz]

Haha, yeah you're kinda undermining your own credibility if you're going to try and argue that 4:14 wasn't a genuine outswinger. That one rather obviously went a long way through the air.

 

[Blocky]

@SteveNZ

Might have something to do with the fact that he hasn't even played a full season of matches for Auckland yet, he'd be lucky if he's even bowled 50 overs for Auckland in List A cricket, he's also from memory had one unbelievable performance against Wellington (6 or 7 wickets for about 40 runs, it's what got him in the NZ A team and then the NZ ODI team) - I don't think he's played a single domestic one dayer since his ODI debut.

He's as quick as anyone not named Bennett, Milne, Wheeler, Mathieson or Kuggelign within the country and unlike any of those players, he's able to control line and length. He's also a hit the deck bowler, which isn't something we have in the current three seamers we have at test.

Ryder as an opener. #5 is currently the test captains spot, with a coach who has said that he does not envisage the captain opening the batting for NZ in tests. #4 is locked down for Taylor. #6 is currently our all rounder who in his international performances to date has locked down that position. #7 is our best keeper batsman since Parore. Meaning you've got #1, 2 and 3. #3 is currently Williamson's to lose, despite Ryder being a better player, narrowing it to #1 and #2.

Looking at the players most equipped to deal with express pace and moving deliveries, Ryder is easily better than Fulton, Williamson (nasty tendency to play inside out at deliveries and follow the ball), Guptill (can't turn over the strike to save himself, follows deliveries) and Rutherford (horrible tendency to throw away starts)

So, is he good enough to play for NZ? Yes. Are there positions in the batting order we need to change/fix? Yes. Should he be given a chance at that spot, if the usual #5 is occupied by the captain and a coach reluctant to let him open, despite McCullum wanting to? Yes.

 

[Blocky]

He's not managed to bowl it at all in New Zealand. I don't perceive him having bowled it in England either, even with the Duke, which I can tell you myself as a guy who only ever gets in-swing when I bowl, I can make that thing bend away simply by holding it straight up the seam.

You can call it swing. I'm still going to say it's his natural arm movement across the batsman. He's never shown it in any of his club performances and any of the performances against Bangladesh or West indies.

 

[hendrix]

He's not managed to bowl it at all in New Zealand. I don't perceive him having bowled it in England either, even with the Duke, which I can tell you myself as a guy who only ever gets in-swing when I bowl, I can make that thing bend away simply by holding it straight up the seam.

You can call it swing. I'm still going to say it's his natural arm movement across the batsman. He's never shown it in any of his club performances and any of the performances against Bangladesh or West indies.

JFC. If it bends in the air it's swing.. He had a conversation with the commentators about it after the match. Said it's something he's been working on. It was 100% deliberate. No **** he never showed it in club cricket, he hadn't developed it yet. You do realise that players have bowling coaches for a reason, right?

And yes, he showed it against the West Indies on occasion. It was very inconsistent though and often went too wide of off stump or down the leg side.

 

[Blocky]

Irregardless, we can agree to disagree on that point - the debate isn't whether or not Boult deserves his place in the side, the debate is the differences that the bowlers offer to the team, and McCleneghan offers something different to the swing attack that Boult, Southee and Wagner offer.

And as an appeasement, Wagner also has the benefit of being able to move it both ways in non English conditions with the Kooka ball.

 

[hendrix]

Wagner also has the benefit of being able to move it both ways in non English conditions with the Kooka ball.

Now I'm going to ask you to show me this…

Look, I like McCleneghan too. He could be a good addition to the side. Just like Milne though, he needs to prove it in first class cricket.

The one bowler who has proven himself in first class cricket this season is Bennett. He is also a hit-the-deck bowler. He's the front-runner.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Blocky lives up to his screen name. In the face of an overwhelming barrage, he breaks open the forward defensive prod and plays it straight-batted back to the bowler. The bowler glares, does Blocky give a Joe Root-esque smile?

 

[Blocky]

I don't screen capture, but if you look at his five wickets in six balls, he hooped it both ways during that spell and even in the series against the Windies, he set Chanderpaul up by swinging them into him outside off then taking one away from off-stump to bowl him.

The other thing about Wagner is he generally gets the hard wickets, he very rarely comes back to clean up the tail as he's not being used by McCullum there. Something like 34 of the 39 wickets he's taken have come from players batting in the Top 7. And about 25 of those 34 were in the Top 5. He's generally the guy in the attack that gets the top player of the opposing team out, he's done it to Trott, Pietersen, Smith, Chanderpaul, Bell, Gayle, Shakib-Al.