Agent Nationaux
International Coach
Knowing Pakistan, they might even select Asif again. He wasn't very quick and will be 32, so probably could still play.
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***Official*** India in New Zealand 2013/14
- Thread starter BeeGee
- Start date
Hurricane
Hall of Fame Member
I think behind closed doors that Pak would be encouraged not to select him. he is viewed as corrupt.
Daemon
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Man, corruption? No way, what a huge deterrent that will be for the PCB.
Hurricane
Hall of Fame Member
My post should have read
"I think behind closed doors the ICC will "encourage" Pak not to pick him. he is viewed as corrupt."
Pak does occassionally cede to the wishes of the ICC. but yes if Pak is left to their own devices they may pick him.
Zinzan
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The All Blacks are a bit of an exception to the rule for anyone who's had any sort of affiliation with NZ though. In terms of patriotism, they can do away with most things when they move away, but rarely the love for the men in black. Russell Crowe is a good case in point - supports the Australian cricket team, loves and of course owns the South Sydney Rabbitohs, but is still a fanatical All Black supporter when it comes to rugby. So it's hardly surprising that Ben Stokes, a young Cantabrian, brought up in a rugby-mad city until the age of 12, would still be besotted by the ABs.
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Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Oh man. So many Souths and Easts fans are going to be so offended by this.
Zinzan
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Haha....the Bunnies I mean
edited...You're right, not sure which of the clubs would be more offended with that slip.
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morgieb
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All I'm gonna say is that zinzan is very lucky you brought this up.
hendrix
Hall of Fame Member
Yeah I think so too. But on the odd occasion in which they either don't fire or the top three manage to hang around for a while, having those excellent support bowlers is pretty useful.
TBH, Morkel is still a pretty good wicket taking option as a support bowler, as he showed against India. But Siddle is better. And then Watson and Lyon are miles better than Robbie P and Duminy.
Any way you look at it, Wagner isn't half the bowler of either of Siddle and Morkel. Which means NZ is relying on Boult and Southee to a massive extent - as they really have done for 2 years. The problem is that the Indian batsmen have shown that they're capable of surviving past those early spells, unlike probably any other team in world cricket right now. That's going to expose NZ's support bowlers badly.
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Blocky
Banned
If we play Sodhi in the test series and he bowls more than ten overs an innings on average, what do you think our chances of beating India are? None. With that in mind, how anyone in their right mind attempt to debate he should even go close to the Northern Districts cricket team with an average of over 50, let alone the NZ Cricket team is absolutely bonkers. You don't select players to Test cricket on the potential that they might become something good in five years.
And the hate on Wagner is also funny, considering he's shown he can get the very best batsmen in the world out. I think key for him is that McCullum isn't using him effectively. Wagner is a guy who is best when he's asked to bowl long spells (8 overs plus) with an aggressive field setting. The problem we have is that all of our best talent outside of Southee with the ball are left arm seamers and due to Corey Anderson also being a left arm seamer, we're kind of screwed.
On effectiveness, the NZ Test team should be
1. Ryder
2. Fulton
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. McCullum
6. Anderson
7. Watling (k)
8. Southee
9. Wagner
10. McCleneghan
11. Boult
Problem there is, you're now talking 4 left arm seamers in your attack, although I don't know if that is a problem being truthful, We wouldn't think four right arm seamers with a left armer would be a bad mix, I think you just select the side that is most likely to perform at international level.
The team they're likely to select, however
1. Rutherford
2. Fulton
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. McCullum
6. Anderson
7. Watling (k)
8. Southee
9. Sodhi (who will not take wickets for less than 50, and will not go under an RPO of 3.5 for any sustained bowling effort against India and pretty much any other nation)
10. Wagner
11. Boult.
And the hate on Wagner is also funny, considering he's shown he can get the very best batsmen in the world out. I think key for him is that McCullum isn't using him effectively. Wagner is a guy who is best when he's asked to bowl long spells (8 overs plus) with an aggressive field setting. The problem we have is that all of our best talent outside of Southee with the ball are left arm seamers and due to Corey Anderson also being a left arm seamer, we're kind of screwed.
On effectiveness, the NZ Test team should be
1. Ryder
2. Fulton
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. McCullum
6. Anderson
7. Watling (k)
8. Southee
9. Wagner
10. McCleneghan
11. Boult
Problem there is, you're now talking 4 left arm seamers in your attack, although I don't know if that is a problem being truthful, We wouldn't think four right arm seamers with a left armer would be a bad mix, I think you just select the side that is most likely to perform at international level.
The team they're likely to select, however
1. Rutherford
2. Fulton
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. McCullum
6. Anderson
7. Watling (k)
8. Southee
9. Sodhi (who will not take wickets for less than 50, and will not go under an RPO of 3.5 for any sustained bowling effort against India and pretty much any other nation)
10. Wagner
11. Boult.
hendrix
Hall of Fame Member
McCleneghan hasn't done anything in first class cricket and we don't need 3 left armers, let alone 4. Bennett would be a better choice.
As for Wagner getting big wickets…what's that thing about Tendulkar getting out to ****ty bowlers on debut? Yeah. Also, you can't give Wagner aggressive fields for long spells when he's leaking runs.
Agree on Sodhi, he shouldn't play against India.
As for Wagner getting big wickets…what's that thing about Tendulkar getting out to ****ty bowlers on debut? Yeah. Also, you can't give Wagner aggressive fields for long spells when he's leaking runs.
Agree on Sodhi, he shouldn't play against India.
Blocky
Banned
It's all about the role McCleneghan is expected to perform, take away his ODI stats from his List A record and he's going at over six with an average of thirty per wicket because Auckland do not use him effectively. He's shown he can rip sides apart in first class cricket on his day and he's shown that under McCullum who expects him to solely attack that he responds better and performs better. I'd argue his success against international batsman on international wickets in international conditions in ODI cricket should be put ahead of his first class record that goes back six years.
What does he offer the side in terms of effectiveness? Difference.
Southee - Right Arm Out Swing who has shown he can get reverse
Boult - Left Arm Out Swing (inswing to Right Handers)
Wagner - Left Arm Swing (both ways, can get reverse quicker and better than Southee.
McCleneghan? Left Arm Seam, Hits the Deck hard and can approach 145+ - it's variation to the bowling attack that can be used in short bursts to rattle and attempt to take wickets.
Other thing to keep in mind is that NZ pitch conditions at domestic level are terrible for producing the types of players we need to beat the world. They're slow paced wickets that offer more to a 125KMH nibbler than a 145KMH express pace bowler. At international level, we're seeing better wickets more conducive to pace bowling, even in NZ.
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As for Ryder opening, yeah completely stupid that we should take the guy who A) Plays the ball the latest of any New Zealand player, B) Is not daunted at all by pace bowling and can mix defense and attack seamlessly. C) Has shown the ability to bat time in both his test career and recently with Otago in first class cricket.
Face facts, he is the most equipped player in NZ to deal with express bowlers who extract movement from the pitch or in the air, because he plays late with a very compact technique. But yeah, it's entirely stupid to put him in a spot that he would do the most for NZ if he was able to maintain his 40+ average.
Yes, you can argue McCullum should go back to opening but seriously, how much are we going to **** him around with batting order changes? Everyone gets on his case for only averaging 36 in test cricket but he's batted 1 through 7 and pretty much switched positions every year.
What does he offer the side in terms of effectiveness? Difference.
Southee - Right Arm Out Swing who has shown he can get reverse
Boult - Left Arm Out Swing (inswing to Right Handers)
Wagner - Left Arm Swing (both ways, can get reverse quicker and better than Southee.
McCleneghan? Left Arm Seam, Hits the Deck hard and can approach 145+ - it's variation to the bowling attack that can be used in short bursts to rattle and attempt to take wickets.
Other thing to keep in mind is that NZ pitch conditions at domestic level are terrible for producing the types of players we need to beat the world. They're slow paced wickets that offer more to a 125KMH nibbler than a 145KMH express pace bowler. At international level, we're seeing better wickets more conducive to pace bowling, even in NZ.
----
As for Ryder opening, yeah completely stupid that we should take the guy who A) Plays the ball the latest of any New Zealand player, B) Is not daunted at all by pace bowling and can mix defense and attack seamlessly. C) Has shown the ability to bat time in both his test career and recently with Otago in first class cricket.
Face facts, he is the most equipped player in NZ to deal with express bowlers who extract movement from the pitch or in the air, because he plays late with a very compact technique. But yeah, it's entirely stupid to put him in a spot that he would do the most for NZ if he was able to maintain his 40+ average.
Yes, you can argue McCullum should go back to opening but seriously, how much are we going to **** him around with batting order changes? Everyone gets on his case for only averaging 36 in test cricket but he's batted 1 through 7 and pretty much switched positions every year.
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Flem274*
123/5
Like honestly, if you want to ignore recent performance then at least pick the faster, swing bowling hail Mary that is Adam Milne who at least destroys A level FC line ups on unresponsive pitches in the subcontinent.
Ryder loves a flash outside off with no footwork to open the batting. Immense talent but let him impose himself at five.
Ryder loves a flash outside off with no footwork to open the batting. Immense talent but let him impose himself at five.
hendrix
Hall of Fame Member
I don't mean to be rude, but this sounds to me as if you haven't watched any of these guys bowl in the last couple of years.
First off, Wagner operates in the 125-135kph range. He's slower than Southee. He occasionally gets some outswing, and occasionally gets some reverse. No freaking way is he better than Southee, who pretty much always swings the ball in all conditions.
Boult is the only one who genuinely swings the ball both ways.
McCleneghan is slower than Boult. Like Wagner, he can get a little swing at times, and also gets a bit of seam. There are at least 3 guys who should be picked as test bowlers ahead of him.
hendrix
Hall of Fame Member
I don't actually disagree with this, but he'd make way more runs at 5 than McCullum and I don't mind the openers being sorta sacrificial lambs in NZ conditions because we don't have any genuinely solid ones until Latham is picked.
hendrix
Hall of Fame Member
Generally doesn't do this in long format cricket. At least not to the extent that Rutherford, Williamson and McCullum do.
Blocky
Banned
@Flem
Picking Milne solely because he can reach 150kmh is tantamount to picking Sodhi, solely because he bowls right arm leg spin and occasionally lands a very good wrong'un. Milne doesn't have the control nor bowl the consistent lengths that McCleneghan has shown he can bowl. Ultimately again, ODI form in taking wickets in all conditions at an exceedingly fast pace which contradicts his abilities in domestic ODI cricket is probably a much better marker on whether or not he has the potential to perform than his existing six year history in first class cricket.
Ryder "loves a flash outside off" - yeah, when he simply doesn't give a **** about cricket or hes in a limited overs match. I'm guessing you haven't seen him play his longer innings for Otago this year where he's pretty much shelved the aerial slash through cover and been a lot more compact, even saying that he wants to bat time in first class cricket and that he wants to be world class at test level when he comes back. We have players who can bat at five and do a reasonable job for New Zealand (i.e average more than 35, which in our history is a lot rarer than you think) - however we do not have players who can open the batting and sustain a 40+ average, something I think we need a lot more considering that we have a world class #4, a potentially very good #3 and a developing #6 and solid #7.
Also, Ryder being there 0/0 in my view is a lot better than him being there 3/40 which recently has been pretty typical of the position McCullum comes out in.
@Hendrix
My statement on Wagner wasn't that he bowls quicker than Southee, more so that he reverses the ball earlier in the innings, apologies, that wasn't very clear in hindsight. It's not uncommon to see Wagner get the ball shaping from about the 35th over onwards. Generally with Southee you're looking more like the 50th before he gets the ball to move and he doesn't get the same level of movement nor as consistently as Wagner does. The problem is that Wagner is very rarely bowled in long spells by McCullum. When he has been, he's generally shown he can take wickets and get the very best players out.
Wagner does move the ball both ways, more markedly when its reversing. Boult doesn't genuinely swing the ball both ways, he has a very good ball that seams across the right hand batsman, but he doesn't possess a ball that actually swings in the air towards the left handed player. Having played against Boult a number of times at representitive and club level, I can guarantee you he has no shapeto bowl a traditional inswinger to the left handed batsman.
Put Boult and McCleneghan on the same radar gun and see who bowls slower. Boult can reach fast speeds but generally bowls within himself, McCleneghan will feel faster to most players and also has a different bowling style, he hits the deck rather than looks for swing.
Picking Milne solely because he can reach 150kmh is tantamount to picking Sodhi, solely because he bowls right arm leg spin and occasionally lands a very good wrong'un. Milne doesn't have the control nor bowl the consistent lengths that McCleneghan has shown he can bowl. Ultimately again, ODI form in taking wickets in all conditions at an exceedingly fast pace which contradicts his abilities in domestic ODI cricket is probably a much better marker on whether or not he has the potential to perform than his existing six year history in first class cricket.
Ryder "loves a flash outside off" - yeah, when he simply doesn't give a **** about cricket or hes in a limited overs match. I'm guessing you haven't seen him play his longer innings for Otago this year where he's pretty much shelved the aerial slash through cover and been a lot more compact, even saying that he wants to bat time in first class cricket and that he wants to be world class at test level when he comes back. We have players who can bat at five and do a reasonable job for New Zealand (i.e average more than 35, which in our history is a lot rarer than you think) - however we do not have players who can open the batting and sustain a 40+ average, something I think we need a lot more considering that we have a world class #4, a potentially very good #3 and a developing #6 and solid #7.
Also, Ryder being there 0/0 in my view is a lot better than him being there 3/40 which recently has been pretty typical of the position McCullum comes out in.
@Hendrix
My statement on Wagner wasn't that he bowls quicker than Southee, more so that he reverses the ball earlier in the innings, apologies, that wasn't very clear in hindsight. It's not uncommon to see Wagner get the ball shaping from about the 35th over onwards. Generally with Southee you're looking more like the 50th before he gets the ball to move and he doesn't get the same level of movement nor as consistently as Wagner does. The problem is that Wagner is very rarely bowled in long spells by McCullum. When he has been, he's generally shown he can take wickets and get the very best players out.
Wagner does move the ball both ways, more markedly when its reversing. Boult doesn't genuinely swing the ball both ways, he has a very good ball that seams across the right hand batsman, but he doesn't possess a ball that actually swings in the air towards the left handed player. Having played against Boult a number of times at representitive and club level, I can guarantee you he has no shapeto bowl a traditional inswinger to the left handed batsman.
Put Boult and McCleneghan on the same radar gun and see who bowls slower. Boult can reach fast speeds but generally bowls within himself, McCleneghan will feel faster to most players and also has a different bowling style, he hits the deck rather than looks for swing.
ohnoitsyou
International Regular
Boult has developed a genuine outswinger to the right hander