(As an England fan) The Worst Ashes You've Seen

[GuyFromLancs]

In a way, yes it is.

Sure we've been hammered numerous times before, but there is something of a perfect storm at work here.

1997 was bad. Ditto 02/03.

Clearly 2006/07 was horrific. But we had that coming all the way. We were up against one of the greatest teams ever on a very specific and heartfelt revenge mission. Also, I never fancied Flintoff for captain. I felt it was a really dumb and kind of populist move from Fletcher. There was also a couple of really poor decisions re: team selection, that although don't mean much at all in hindsight, at the time grated. Giles in for Monty for the first 2 tests. Playing Jimmy Anderson despite the fact he'd missed all(?) the 06 season with a serious back injury.

Bit this series - we come in as favourites on the back of a admittedly flattering 3-0 victory, and 4 tests in we've taken 3 hammering, one still significant defeat. We've lost 2 very important players to (probable) retirement, including our best spinner for decades. There's a real cloud hanging over our captain. Our coach is staring down the barrel of a gun. None of our players have really performed (not even a Michael Vaughan in 02/03 silver lining). We look dead on our feet. Like that awful Ali-Holmes fight in the early 80s.

And forgive me for saying, but all of this against a distinctly 2nd rate test team.

Can anyone recall worse Ashes for us taking into account all the facts?

 

[Burgey]

1989

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Na 1989 we were a poor side anyway. This is the worst.

 

[TNT]

And forgive me for saying, but all of this against a distinctly 2nd rate test team.

What an ignorant statement, mate you need to learn to be a bit more humble in defeat.

 

[Burgey]

Na 1989 we were a poor side anyway. This is the worst.

The Australian side was almost totally unheralded though. Only two of the top seven had toured England, and one of them was Boon who was awful in 85. Of the bowlers, Alderman was quality but considered past it, Lawson likewise and Merv was thought a bit of a joke and was lucky to make the plane ahead of Whitney. And the spinner was Hohns.

I think it came as a surprise to see that team so completely dominate a pretty experienced England side which featured the likes of Gower, Gooch and Botham. Think it was really the first time I saw Botham and thought he was flat out past it.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

The Australian side was almost totally unheralded though. Only two of the top seven had toured England, and one of them was Boon who was awful in 85. Of the bowlers, Alderman was quality but considered past it, Lawson likewise and Merv was thought a bit of a joke and was lucky to make the plane ahead of Whitney. And the spinner was Hohns.

I think it came as a surprise to see that team so completely dominate a pretty experienced England side which featured the likes of Gower, Gooch and Botham. Think it was really the first time I saw Botham and thought he was flat out past it.

We knew Botham was past it, we had no bowling at all in the late 80's so it was no shock we struggled.

 

[GuyFromLancs]

What an ignorant statement, mate you need to learn to be a bit more humble in defeat.

But it's true. This Aus team can hardly be described as first rate.

 

[GuyFromLancs]

Zaltsman's funny yet poignant highlight of Australia's statistical dominance speaks volumes.

 

[wpdavid]

The Australian side was almost totally unheralded though. Only two of the top seven had toured England, and one of them was Boon who was awful in 85. Of the bowlers, Alderman was quality but considered past it, Lawson likewise and Merv was thought a bit of a joke and was lucky to make the plane ahead of Whitney. And the spinner was Hohns.

I think it came as a surprise to see that team so completely dominate a pretty experienced England side which featured the likes of Gower, Gooch and Botham. Think it was really the first time I saw Botham and thought he was flat out past it.

Yup, 1989 is the only contender in my life time. We had beaten you pretty comfortably on your turf a couple of years previously and hadn't noted any reasons why we shouldn't turn you over this time. Botham was indeed well past it, and I'm not sure he even played in the first couple of tests. But as well as Gooch and Gower, we also had Lamb and Broad. Maybe Gatting too? We knew our bowling wasn't outstanding, but we thought that it should be good enough. Granted we'd never heard of Mark Taylor, and we presumed that Steve Waugh would still be in 1986/7 mode.

OK, we'd gone down 4-0 to WI 12 months previously, but we tended to see that as par for the course, and obviously Aus did much the same against those guys. We'd competed well against a good Pakistan side home and away, and comfortably drawn the one-off match in Aus in 1988. We honestly thought we had nothing to fear from that Aus side. With hindsight it was just what we did in the late 1980's, but I don't remember it being expected at all.

Whether it was worse than this debacle is hard to say. Both have been appalling in the extreme. It isn't disrespectful to Aus in the slightest to say as much, either.


The other contender slightly before my time would be the 'chucking' series in the late 1950's, where our massively experienced team went down 4-0. From here, it looks like they didn't fancy it any more than the current bunch fancied Johnson's fare.

 

[Crazy Sam]

Funnily enough I think I enjoyed Australia's 4-0 win over India last time they toured here more than the current series win by Australia; however this current series is certainly one to savour. The best thing about 5-0 is that Australia gets to share its dominance over England with all 5 major cricket grounds in the country. The second best thing is the incredibly unorthodox build up Australia has had over the past 9-10 months of test cricket to get to this point. It feels like the India and England tours were purely exercises in weeding out all the fringe players who aren't up to playing test cricket.

 

[mullarkey]

considering all things I think this one is the worst by far. Don't forget wise old sages like Botham were predicting a 10-0 (a view that I found utterly laughable BTW). 1989 is running it close but with certain England players (at that time) behaving as though it was public school bean fest the end result, in retrospect, wasn't so surprising. Despite a lot of knee-jerk reaction to this debacle the lads have not set out to disrespect English cricket or English fans, they have just bombed.

 

[MW1304]

Only time I've seen us lose, so yeah.

 

[hendrix]

What an ignorant statement, mate you need to learn to be a bit more humble in defeat.

you picked all of his thought out comments and chose to address this minor statement in a thread that's specifically addressed towards English fans, with a preface that was also intended to reduce any inadvertent offense caused?

 

[Tangles]

Based on performance I don't see how you could call out bowling unit or keeper 2nd rate.

 

[MW1304]

The team isn't exceptional but they have certainly performed exceptionally in several departments.

 

[wpdavid]

Yup, 1989 is the only contender in my life time. We had beaten you pretty comfortably on your turf a couple of years previously and hadn't noted any reasons why we shouldn't turn you over this time. Botham was indeed well past it, and I'm not sure he even played in the first couple of tests. But as well as Gooch and Gower, we also had Lamb and Broad. Maybe Gatting too? We knew our bowling wasn't outstanding, but we thought that it should be good enough. Granted we'd never heard of Mark Taylor, and we presumed that Steve Waugh would still be in 1986/7 mode.

OK, we'd gone down 4-0 to WI 12 months previously, but we tended to see that as par for the course, and obviously Aus did much the same against those guys. We'd competed well against a good Pakistan side home and away, and comfortably drawn the one-off match in Aus in 1988. We honestly thought we had nothing to fear from that Aus side. With hindsight it was just what we did in the late 1980's, but I don't remember it being expected at all.

Whether it was worse than this debacle is hard to say. Both have been appalling in the extreme. It isn't disrespectful to Aus in the slightest to say as much, either.


The other contender slightly before my time would be the 'chucking' series in the late 1950's, where our massively experienced team went down 4-0. From here, it looks like they didn't fancy it any more than the current bunch fancied Johnson's fare.

The other thing about 1989 was the sheer volume of players who turned out for us - iirc it was 29 in six tests. Half of whom made themselves half way through the series by signing up for Gatting's 'rebel' tour to SA.

 

[GuyFromLancs]

Based on performance I don't see how you could call out bowling unit or keeper 2nd rate.

I mean overall. Their performances this series have been outstanding. But more in the second-rate team riding the crest a wave sense, than a bona fide first-rate team.

Which in some ways is even more impressive.

 

[BoyBrumby]

If the three debutants make their bows at Sydney how many will that bring us to?

11 who played at Bris, Stokes, Panesar, Bresnan & Bairstow have featured from memory so far, so 18? That's an awful lot for a tour.

I think this is up/down there in the worst Ashes series I can recall. The uniformity of direness has made it so. Even in 06/07 we had a couple of double tons at Adelaide.

 

[GuyFromLancs]

Only time I've seen us lose, so yeah.

I urgently recommend catching up on the 1990s in case you need to acclimatised yourself to the habit,

 

[wpdavid]

If the three debutants make their bows at Sydney how many will that bring us to?

11 who played at Bris, Stokes, Panesar, Bresnan & Bairstow have featured from memory so far, so 18? That's an awful lot for a tour.

I think this is up/down there in the worst Ashes series I can recall. The uniformity of direness has made it so. Even in 06/07 we had a couple of double tons at Adelaide.

Yeah, 18 is massive, even allowing for two of them dropping out. It may even be the highest number over in an away series.

And I had far more sympathy for them in 2006/07 for all the reasons that have already been mentioned.


btw was 1989 before your time?