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Kallis retires from Tests

Bahnz

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Jassy said:
2)While his ability to crank it upwards of 140 at 38 cannot be overlooked, he's always been the 4th or 5th bowler and has nowhere near the workload of say, a Zaheer Khan or a Chaminda Vaas. You could argue he was generally brought on when the dirty work had been done.
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You could but you'd be talking bollocks. Kallis was a critical part of South Africa's bowling attack and the number of top order wickets he took compares favourably with the other great all rounders mentioned in this thread.
 
salman85

salman85

International Debutant
Top player.Easily the greatest to have played for South Africa.

I would love it if he manages to get to 300 test wickets.8 more wickets,which is probably a big ask considering how he isn't as good as he was,but still.I'd love it if he manages to have last outstanding spell with the ball.
 
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flibbertyjibber

flibbertyjibber

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Monk said:
That's absurd. Name one test team in the history of cricket that Kallis wouldn't be a walk up start in....
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He'd probably be more of a cert than a Lara or Ponting simply because of his bowling. Not saying he was a better bat but the full package he gave was immense.
 
Red

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
The argument is/was the Kallis would walk in to any actual test team in the history of cricket. Not an ATG team.

At least that's what I understood it to be! :)
 
flibbertyjibber

flibbertyjibber

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Monk said:
The argument is/was the Kallis would walk in to any actual test team in the history of cricket. Not an ATG team.

At least that's what I understood it to be! :)
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I know, was using them as an example of how good and highly regarded Kallis should be.
 
J

Jassy

Banned
Who said anything about his numbers not comparing favourably with the other great all rounders mentioned in this thread or about his utility to the SA side? Talk about missing the point. The crux of my post was the Kallis=Tendulkar+Zaheer insinuation. He is not close to Zaheer as a bowler. Throw in the % of top order wickets, WPI or SR; it's a no-contest. I would take Lara or Ponting over Kallis in most cases in a heartbeat, unless the team was in dire need of bowling options.
 
Cabinet96

Cabinet96

Hall of Fame Member
LOL at Kallis not walking in to any side ever. He'd walk into half of them if he had the batting capabilities of Chris Martin FFS.
 
Bahnz

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Jassy said:
Who said anything about his numbers not comparing favourably with the other great all rounders mentioned in this thread or about his utility to the SA side? Talk about missing the point. The crux of my post was the Kallis=Tendulkar+Zaheer insinuation. He is not close to Zaheer as a bowler. Throw in the % of top order wickets, WPI or SR; it's a no-contest. I would take Lara or Ponting over Kallis in most cases in a heartbeat, unless the team was in dire need of bowling options.
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My comment was in response to your suggestion that Kallis got to bowl when the hard work had already been done, which is factually incorrect. I'm not arguing that he's a better bowler than Zaheer. And I definitely would pick him ahead of Lara or Ponting unless I had already had a bowling attack of Ambrose, Marshall, Wasim and Warne.
 
Jono

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
What a legend.

Who would have ever thought he'd be retiring from tests before ODIs. Just another way the man proves he is an enigma.
 
J

Jassy

Banned
Bahnz said:
My comment was in response to your suggestion that Kallis got to bowl when the hard work had already been done, which is factually incorrect. I'm not arguing that he's a better bowler than Zaheer. And I definitely would pick him ahead of Lara or Ponting unless I had already had a bowling attack of Ambrose, Marshall, Wasim and Warne.
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He definitely had it easier coming on to bowl after Donald, Pollock, Ntini, Steyn, Morkel, Philander (I realize not all played together) had blown away the top order or had softened them up. This may or may not reflect in the numbers (in the case of Zaheer vs Kallis, it definitely does) but it is certainly an argument worth pondering over. The workload he had was nowhere near as much as 'proper' front-line bowlers viz. Anderson, Zaheer et al; hence it would be unfair on both to compare them purely on averages (as Tendulkar+Zaheer seems to suggest). You could also split hairs and argue he was more likely to get to bowl in a relatively easy situation/used more in suitable conditions/taken off the attack when hammered etc.(luxuries that premier strike bowlers do not have, in short).

He compares favourably with the great all rounders and he is an ATG, no objections there. Gotta agree to disagree on the Lara/Ponting thing. To me they were definitely better batsman by a margin not negligible enough to make me consider the other added advantages they brought to the table. By a better margin I don't mean a Bradman vs Martin type margin, just a clear and definite margin. If I didn't have enough 5th bowling options or the front-line bowlers were utter crap, then I'd probably go Kallis.
 
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kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
Jassy said:
First of all, congrats to Jacques Kallis on a magnificent career. Definitely an ATG cricketer and I hope he goes out on a high by scoring some runs :)

Now onto the discussion about him being Tendulkar+Zaheer - it is misleading, simple as. About as misleading as something like this:

Kallis batting average:55, bowling average 32.5. Difference=22.5
Botham batting average 33.5, bowling average 28.4. Difference=5.1

What do we make of that? Does this Botham was not even in Kallis' league as an all rounder? Nope, it's just misleading like Tendulkar+Zaheer.

This is a retirement thread and Kallis has truly had a great career so this isn't the right place to criticize him. However, just a few things:

1)Purely as a batsman, I would have him behind Tendulkar, Ponting, Lara and possibly even Dravid. He has the record of an ATG batsman but he's not as good as Tendulkar, Ponting, Lara and I am not sure that is up for debate. There is a *small but clear* difference in class there.
2)While his ability to crank it upwards of 140 at 38 cannot be overlooked, he's always been the 4th or 5th bowler and has nowhere near the workload of say, a Zaheer Khan or a Chaminda Vaas. You could argue he was generally brought on when the dirty work had been done. All things considered, he is significantly worse bowler than Zaheer Khan or Vaas or Jimmy Anderson for that matter. Seriously, he is a bloody good cricketer but hand on heart you really cannot say he is Cook+Anderson or Tendulkar+Zaheer or whatever. He is not.

So yes, for me it isn't as clear-cut that he is a MUCH better cricketer than Ponting or Tendulkar or whoever. I would give an understanding nod if someone said he was more valuable and brought more to his team than Ponting or Tendulkar did, but if they made it sound like it was an easy choice I would be pretty skeptical. Really, I'd like to know many England fans would rather have Kallis than Cook+Anderson or how many Indian fans would have Kallis over Tendulkar+Zaheer? Let's not get silly please. Yes it makes for a good screenshot, that is all.

All that said, Jacques Kallis is definitely a great cricketer. There will be a few hisses about the red ink or the sometimes seemingly one dimensional nature of his play, but there is no way you could reasonably argue that he isn't one of the best of all time. SA will definitely miss him. Thank you Kallis, wish you the best.
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Excellent post.

I agree that while Kallis is behind Lara, Ponting and Tendulkar (and agree that it isn't quite up for debate), not so sure about Dravid. That is is definitely up for debate and I would probably give Kallis the advantage over Dravid and Sangakkara.

One thing that you did omit is the impact of Kallis's slip fielding and while I would give Ponting and Lara a slight edge in that department, it wasn't by a significant margin. He was extremely valuable to S.A in the cordon as well.
 
J

Jassy

Banned
kyear2 said:
Excellent post.

I agree that while Kallis is behind Lara, Ponting and Tendulkar (and agree that it isn't quite up for debate), not so sure about Dravid. That is is definitely up for debate and I would probably give Kallis the advantage over Dravid and Sangakkara.

One thing that you did omit is the impact of Kallis's slip fielding and while I would give Ponting and Lara a slight edge in that department, it wasn't by a significant margin. He was extremely valuable to S.A in the cordon as well.
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Thank you :)

Yes, I did mention if you noticed that Lara, Ponting and Tendulkar being better than Kallis wasn't quite up for debate. Think Dravid vs Kallis is definitely debatable. My views on the batsman who averages 40 outside the SC are I'd imagine, quite well known. Will not bore people yet again!

I am not sure I would give too much importance to slip fielding. Sure, it is good to have good slip fielders (ask the current Indian side!), but it only really matters if the others were terrible or regularly grassed chances IMO. Might as well start factoring in dives, etc. otherwise.
 
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