England post ashes 13/14

[flibbertyjibber]

Well this has been an absolute disaster from an England point of view, from Trott going home to batting collapse after batting collapse and the captain looking all at sea and the bowlers looking useless apart from Broad. So what now, the ashes have almost certainly gone barring a miracle of Headingley 81 proportions and many key members of this side are the wrong side of 30.

For a start I think Flower will step down, there were rumours that he might go after the home ashes but after this series he may decide enough is enough. He has done a brilliant job over the years but like Fletcher it appears to have gone stale and seeing as Giles is already in charge of the one day side the wheels are already in motion to change when needed. If he does go then Gooch should too, a batting coach who is in charge of a side who continually collapse isn't doing his job properly so Thorpe should replace him. Saker has only just signed a new contract and mushtaq is doing a good job with the spinners so I expect them to remain.

As for the captain he probably doesn't deserve the sack but the press will be on his back after this series and his own form has dipped dramatically after a great start. The trouble is who can replace him? Prior the vice captain is probably under more pressure than Cook and Broad the 20/20 skipper doesn't strike me as a future test captain. That leaves Bell, whoopee. Cook keeps job by default almost.

Pietersen has to have the knee operation to either sort it out or end his test career. When he has an injury he plays in a harem scarem way and that is no use to us so he either gets fully fit or has to walk away and join the T20 bandwagon as a mercenary. Anderson and Swann have been a huge letdown, Anderson has not been the same since Trent Bridge when Cook bowled him into the ground so hopefully 4/5 moths rest will do the trick. He is still good enough as a bowler just not the wicket taking threat of old. Swann was good in the summer but has the elbow injury nullified him or is it just a lack of form/pitches/Aussies playing him well that has meant he has looked poor. He has enough in the tank like Anderson to deserve another go this summer but has to produce. Prior has looked dreadful since his New Zealand heroics, he has been brilliant for ages so it really stands out, again he has enough in reserve to deserve a little more time but has to perform or Bairstow will get a run in the side. Don't think Buttler has done enough in first class cricket to get the gloves in tests but would understand if he did as he seems to be the chosen one.

All in all I think Cook, Root, Bell, Broad and Stokes deserve to keep their places no matter what for the summer with Carberry, Anderson, Swann, KP (if fit) and Prior all looking over their shoulders. I'm not saying drop them all as that would be ridiculous but some of them could well be on borrowed time as they are all the wrong side of 30 and none are certain to be around for 2015 anyway. Anderson will keep his place longer I feel as there isn't a plethora of bowlers waiting in the wings as proved by this tour. Not sure what will happen with Bresnan but not unhappy if he stays in the side.

We have been bullied and outplayed on this tour, something has to be done and i get the feeling something will be done. If it doesn't we are in trouble.

 

[Spark]

Why doesn't Broad strike you as a future Test captain? Is it simply because he's a fragile quick?

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Yeah, he has missed a lot of games so it would disrupt too much.

 

[AlanJLegend]

The way I see it England can go one of two directions; they can keep a very similar squad to try to avenge this series in 2015, or they can get rid of some of the senior players who aren't performing and try to make somewhat of a fresh start with (very likely) a new coach.

 

[Pothas]

Don't think there should be any pressure on Cook anyhow.

England certainly in a difficult position, we know that quite a few players are nearing the end but there is not a single one that you can say for definite will retire, or should be got rid of immediately. Then there is the further problem that nobody who has made their debut since Trott (Root partly excepted) has really established themselves in the side. Don't really know what they should do really.

 

[GotSpin]

Should probably wait until the series is over. Thats what

 

[wpdavid]

Should probably wait until the series is over. Thats what

Sounds wise, but I'm against players keeping themselves in the side through handy performances after the series has been lost.

Also, this isn't a one-off, it's an extension of what we've been seeing for a couple of years now, espcially with the batting. With the bowling, it's more a case of what we've seen throughout 2013.

 

[theegyptian]

Well this has been an absolute disaster from an England point of view, from Trott going home to batting collapse after batting collapse and the captain looking all at sea and the bowlers looking useless apart from Broad. So what now, the ashes have almost certainly gone barring a miracle of Headingley 81 proportions and many key members of this side are the wrong side of 30.

For a start I think Flower will step down, there were rumours that he might go after the home ashes but after this series he may decide enough is enough. He has done a brilliant job over the years but like Fletcher it appears to have gone stale and seeing as Giles is already in charge of the one day side the wheels are already in motion to change when needed. If he does go then Gooch should too, a batting coach who is in charge of a side who continually collapse isn't doing his job properly so Thorpe should replace him. Saker has only just signed a new contract and mushtaq is doing a good job with the spinners so I expect them to remain.

As for the captain he probably doesn't deserve the sack but the press will be on his back after this series and his own form has dipped dramatically after a great start. The trouble is who can replace him? Prior the vice captain is probably under more pressure than Cook and Broad the 20/20 skipper doesn't strike me as a future test captain. That leaves Bell, whoopee. Cook keeps job by default almost.

Pietersen has to have the knee operation to either sort it out or end his test career. When he has an injury he plays in a harem scarem way and that is no use to us so he either gets fully fit or has to walk away and join the T20 bandwagon as a mercenary. Anderson and Swann have been a huge letdown, Anderson has not been the same since Trent Bridge when Cook bowled him into the ground so hopefully 4/5 moths rest will do the trick. He is still good enough as a bowler just not the wicket taking threat of old. Swann was good in the summer but has the elbow injury nullified him or is it just a lack of form/pitches/Aussies playing him well that has meant he has looked poor. He has enough in the tank like Anderson to deserve another go this summer but has to produce. Prior has looked dreadful since his New Zealand heroics, he has been brilliant for ages so it really stands out, again he has enough in reserve to deserve a little more time but has to perform or Bairstow will get a run in the side. Don't think Buttler has done enough in first class cricket to get the gloves in tests but would understand if he did as he seems to be the chosen one.

All in all I think Cook, Root, Bell, Broad and Stokes deserve to keep their places no matter what for the summer with Carberry, Anderson, Swann, KP (if fit) and Prior all looking over their shoulders. I'm not saying drop them all as that would be ridiculous but some of them could well be on borrowed time as they are all the wrong side of 30 and none are certain to be around for 2015 anyway. Anderson will keep his place longer I feel as there isn't a plethora of bowlers waiting in the wings as proved by this tour. Not sure what will happen with Bresnan but not unhappy if he stays in the side.

We have been bullied and outplayed on this tour, something has to be done and i get the feeling something will be done. If it doesn't we are in trouble.

Fwiw I'd thought that Anderson had lost some of his potency for a while before the aussie home series and I know people pick out the game at trent bridge but I'd say that game was more of the anomaly over the last couple of years than the form since. Anderson is still a good bowler, not quite as good as he was but his relative lack of incision gets highlighted more by the problem 3rd seamer spot and Swann being carted over the place for a while. Although him getting carted today was terrible it was no different from dire death anderson in odi cricket- that's definitely no reason to drop him.

Swann getting smashed today was more worrying. He looks like an old man with waning powers. A miniscule issue but it's really annoying when he lets everything through that bounces before him in the slips. Problem here for England is that Panesar is embarrassing in the field. And then there is no-one else behind.

Saker seems to have done to Finn what Cooley did to Anderson.

I don't think any keeper particularly is ready to replace Prior but Prior will come under the most pressure. Bairstow simply hasn't kept enough- same with Buttler. They may go with Buttler if they did make a change just based on his character rather than any amazing batting form or technical thing. Buttler would be especially susceptible to bowling around the mythical 4th or 5th stump from the seamers from what I've seen. You're also looking potentially for a keeper to bat at 6 with Stokes at 7 and Buttler isn't a test 6. Bairstow, Kieswetter, and Davies are better bets to bat in the top 6 but they ain't amazing or even good options. Davies has loads of talent but he's really struggled for a couple of years and I wouldn't be amazed if he retired prematurely.

KP is KP. trademark. I've always though the australians overrated him somewhat glossing over all the poor dismissals and only really the great innings are remembered. England fans I think generally had a more accurate understanding of his career as you would as they follow him more closely. He's not a great but he's still most definitely worth his place in the team. He might decide to quit on his own but I'd leave that to him.

Carberry has looked comfortable even good on occasion but hasn't scored enough runs. That would be fine if he was 25. You'd say we'll give you the time because you look good enough for this level. Unfortunately for him he's 33 so there will be none of that leniency. He needs big runs in the last couple of games.

Bresnan is the guy who really shouldn't be in the team but until another decent third seamer turns up he's always going to be close. Give Stokes 10 tests and he'll be a better bowler than Bresnan.

You can just keep losing and not making changes but change too much and you'll be left with nothing in terms of experience and class. We've already lost Trott it would be foolish to get rid off too many.

 

[steds]

I think this is the end of the road for Trott (obviously) and Swann. The need for a permanent solution to the third seamer spot puts Bresnan on the precipice also. The rest just seems a bit knee jerk. With Anderson, as I pointed out in another thread, since the start of 2012 he's bowled more overs in international cricket than any other bowler - almost 200 more than Broad and a full 390 more than Steyn. That's not sustainable at this point in his career. I'd like to see him "retired" from the shorter formats for the sake of longevity. Not that that'll happen. He'll soldier on to the World Cup, for better or worse - probably worse. As for Prior's eventual (or not so eventual, dependent on how he goes next summer) replacement, I hope it's Buttler. More because of Bairstow's outfielding than anything else. I'm struggling to name a better English fielder right now, and it's an area that this team needs to improve upon, if he can sort his batting out.

 

[theegyptian]

Anderson should have quit the ODI team after the last world cup or been dropped permanently. But I guess the way the contracts work he wanted to keep on playing. No point him giving it away now given he's been excellent in ODI cricket much to my incredulity in the last couple of years and with the world cup only 14 or so months away.

 

[Cabinet96]

The thing is, we don't have the people to replace Swann and Anderson. Third seamer spot is enough of an issue as it is, without having to replace Anderson as well. Swann's still had good series in the last year or so, most notably the last Ashes and India tour, and who have we got better? Monty will be 32 by the time the next series starts and no one else is good enough.

I keep thinking to myself that we need a massive reshuffle, but it doesn't make that much sense when you get down to it. There's no way Cook should lose his job. The fact that we've not been good enough under him doesn't mean we suddenly will be under someone else. Who are the alternatives anyway? Bell and Broad is about it.

Carberry has done OK this series, but surely he's not the long term option to open. For SL either Root has to open or another youngster has to be brought in. Trott's career is unfortunately probably over. He was living on a tightrope before his illness and it's surely too much to come back now? Either Bell has to be promoted or Root can stay at three, depending on whether or not the latter is opening.

Flibberty raises a good point about KP's knee. He's been putting off an operation to play these last two series but maybe it's best to just go ahead with it, maybe after the World T20 with a look to being back for the India series. Bell is perfectly fine and will be one of the key players over the next few years. Stokes has done OK, but I'm still not entirely convinced an all-rounder is what's needed at home. Put him in the maybe pile.

With regards to Prior, there's no obvious reason why his performances should have dropped so significantly since the 2012/13 season. I think for now we have to back him to recover. It's not like we're short of keeper batsman though, so it's a decision which can be made on the eve of the next series, based on Championship form.

On to the bowlers, sadly only Broad looks a long term lock at this point. Anderson and Swann have had poor series and appear on the wane, but as said above, I think we have to stick with them for mine. No idea who the third seamer should be long term. Might be worth putting a punt on someone young. Who that is? No idea.

Agree with Flibberty about Flower and Gouch going for Giles and Thorpe. Their time seems to be up.

 

[Spark]

Anderson might have lost a bit of his attacking sharpness, but he's been the best seam bowler England have had in donkey's years. Until he decides to call it a day or he really starts to lose his pace, you stick with him.

 

[wpdavid]

Anderson might have lost a bit of his attacking sharpness, but he's been the best seam bowler England have had in donkey's years. Until he decides to call it a day or he really starts to lose his pace, you stick with him.

Well, his figures in 2013 at the very least entitle the question to be asked, especially given the opposition and the locations. Unless there's an ongoing injury that we don't know about, you do have to wonder if his time has passed. Wonderful bowler in his pomp, but this year has seen an alarming decline. Quite who should replace him is another matter, but if we're really saying that we genuinely don't have anyone who could do better than he's managed in this series then we're even more ****ed than I thought. That's why, assuming we lose this test, I'd play Finn and Rankin in the final two to at least see what they can do in challenging circumstances. 5-0 doesn't feel any better just because Jimmy's playing, so we might as well learn something.

 

[Cabinet96]

There was a time and a place for the likes of Finn and Rankin, and it was at Brisbane and Perth, not Melbourne and Sydney. They really won't do a better job than Anderson in the latter two matches.

There might be space for all three anyway, what with Broad's foot and Bresnan's failure to set the world alight at Perth.

 

[GIMH]

SPOILER BELOW




Brezza won't be dropped after his match winning ton at Perth

 

[Burgey]

Anderson needs managing now he's getting on a bit. I'd be tapping him on the shoulder wrt one dayers and have him as a test match only bowler. It's not like there aren't a lot of seam bowlers who are better batsmen than him who can play in Odis.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

Looking ahead, England are playing Lanka and India at home, Windies away and NZ at home before the Ashes. They should use this time and these games with weaker opponents to regroup, become fit and mentally focus themselves, so that they can take on the Aussies. Cook should stay as Captain for stability (please don't do what Pak does to its players).

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Looking ahead, England are playing Lanka and India at home, Windies away and NZ at home before the Ashes. They should use this time and these games with weaker opponents to regroup, become fit and mentally focus themselves, so that they can take on the Aussies. Cook should stay as Captain for stability (please don't do what Pak does to its players).

I agree, can see nothing being done (like India used to do) winning at home or against the lesser sides and then coming up short in the big series against Australia though.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

India still does this.

 

[Furball]

We've got 18 months until Australia arrive back on these shores. Our Test calendar until then is:

Sri Lanka (h) - 2 Tests
India (h) - 5 Tests
West Indies (a) - 3 Tests
New Zealand (h) - 2 Tests

That's 2 very friendly opponents for our batsmen next summer, and with the greatest respect to our 2015 opponents, there's tougher gigs in Test cricket.

It is not the time for knee-jerking and making a whole load of changes for change's sake. Out of the current touring party, Trott is the only player I wouldn't be touching again. As harsh as this sounds, his form for the past 2 years had been utterly crap, and I don't think it's fair on either the player, or the team, to expose him to exactly the same sort of situation that's caused his illness in the first place.

Cook - no realistic option to replace him as Test captain
Carberry - doing OK
Root - long term
Pietersen - still world class if he could stop the ****ing brain farts
Bell - single-handedly carried the batting in the summer
Number 6 is up for grabs
Prior - more than enough credit in the bank
Swann - have a look at Murali's figures in Australia. Australia is a ****ing grave yard for spinners (which begs the question, who the **** thought picking 2 spinners at Adelaide was a good idea?), Swann has been ruthlessly targetted by Australia's batsmen who knew that he wouldn't get the assistance he got at home and England's seam bowling hasn't been able to cover for him. The upcoming fixture list isn't ideal for Swann but I'll be amazed if he's not still the best spinner in England in 2 years' time.
Anderson - possibly the most ridiculous idea I've ever read. His SR of 65+ is definitely a major worry. Probably because he's been carrying England's bowling attack for the last 5 years and it's taken its toll. As soon as the Sydney Test is done, Anderson needs to fly home and have a long rest. I'd be managing his ODI workload as well (which means missing the tours of the West Indies and Sri Lanka, which are ODI only) to have him as fresh as possible for the summer's Tests and the World Cup, at which point he should retire from ODI cricket and concentrate on Tests. Manage his workload, keep him fresh, stop flogging him into the ground and he'll be alright. Quite why you'd consider dropping your number 1 bowler when the 3rd seamer position can't be filled is beyond me.
Broad - not a captaincy option because he breaks all the time
3rd seamer - Bres easily if he would stop breaking.