***Official*** New Zealand in Bangladesh & Sri Lanka 2013

[Flem274*]

Vettori is certainly better than ish or anderson but I still don't buy that he should be part of our strongest four man bowling lineup. It's no coincidence that our best recent test performances have come largely without Dan. If Kane didn't exist, he'd be batting 6 or 7 and sending down a few overs as a batting allrounder but now he's just not necessary.

It feels weird saying that, considering how many times he was a one-man team for us. I just get the feeling that he's a "Making losses look not so bad" specialist and isn't the kind of player capable of actually bringing us over the line.

I think he could have won more games with the blade had he had more support, but he's a stock pressure builder with the ball.

 

[straw man]

It feels weird saying that, considering how many times he was a one-man team for us. I just get the feeling that he's a "Making losses look not so bad" specialist and isn't the kind of player capable of actually bringing us over the line.

Yes the posts on here about the last couple of times we toured Bangladesh really brought that back to me - that period around 2008-2010 was the peak of the Vettori-one-man-team time for us.

 

[hendrix]

Vettori is certainly better than ish or anderson but I still don't buy that he should be part of our strongest four man bowling lineup.

We have two very good, proven bowlers right now. Southee and Boult. That's it.

Even if we go with the untested (but hugely exciting) Milne, our best attack is Southee, Boult, Milne, Vettori.

It's no coincidence that our best recent test performances have come largely without Dan. If Kane didn't exist, he'd be batting 6 or 7 and sending down a few overs as a batting allrounder but now he's just not necessary.

Nah I don't buy this. The win in Hobart was on a seaming wicket where I think not a single over of spin was bowled. There aren't many wickets like that in the world.

The win in Galle required lots of tight overs with the old ball. Bracewell was largely ineffective. Todd Astle picked up a key wicket. That was one wicket, but it was absolutely vital. Even if we assume Vettori is not very penetrative, I still think he can easily be relied upon to pick up the odd crucial wicket and keep things tight with the old ball. That is an essential skill given the extent to which Southee and Boult rely on new ball wickets.

 

[hendrix]

I think he could have won more games with the blade had he had more support, but he's a stock pressure builder with the ball.

Honestly, these two characteristics are exactly what the team needs right now and has needed in his absence.

 

[Maximas]

I thought the selection of Mominul ahead of Naeem was entirely unjustified - still do tbh - but he's certainly shutting me up a bit here.

Mominul was averaging close to fifty from his three tests before this match, I think his selection was fine tbh, heard he is meant to be Bangladesh's big new batsman

 

[wellAlbidarned]

We have two very good, proven bowlers right now. Southee and Boult. That's it.

Even if we go with the untested (but hugely exciting) Milne, our best attack is Southee, Boult, Milne, Vettori.



Nah I don't buy this. The win in Hobart was on a seaming wicket where I think not a single over of spin was bowled. There aren't many wickets like that in the world.

The win in Galle required lots of tight overs with the old ball. Bracewell was largely ineffective. Todd Astle picked up a key wicket. That was one wicket, but it was absolutely vital. Even if we assume Vettori is not very penetrative, I still think he can easily be relied upon to pick up the odd crucial wicket and keep things tight with the old ball. That is an essential skill given the extent to which Southee and Boult rely on new ball wickets.

It feels like dan's economy in tests is being slightly overstated. He was getting picked off at near 3 an over without getting any wickets when he was last playing. Is he still an excellent LO bowler? Yes. That hasn't translated into test performances for years. Happy to eat my words, but he's well past it as a first-on-the-team-sheet bowler. I'd rather unproven youth than proven mediocrity.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

The win in Galle required lots of tight overs with the old ball. Bracewell was largely ineffective. Todd Astle picked up a key wicket. That was one wicket, but it was absolutely vital. .

This is sort of exactly what I mean. Whenever he's not playing, everyone else seems to step up their game a few notches for whatever reason.

 

[hendrix]

I'd rather unproven youth than proven mediocrity.

what unproven youth though? Assuming we already get Milne in the team, who else would you want in the 4th bowlers spot? Noone else justifies selection IMO.

 

[Bahnz]

It'll be interesting to see how much Ish goes to the googly today. Bowled just one last night, and Marshall picked it up so easily that it was as if Ish had a flashing light over his head saying "wrong'un".

 

[Bahnz]

This is sort of exactly what I mean. Whenever he's not playing, everyone else seems to step up their game a few notches for whatever reason.

Yeah New Zealand's record of 1 win, 8 losses and 3 draws since Vettori destroyed his ankle is obvious evidence of this trend.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

what unproven youth though? Assuming we already get Milne in the team, who else would you want in the 4th bowlers spot? Noone else justifies selection IMO.

Well, not strictly youth, but Wagner definitely got a rough cut imo. Boult, Southee, Milne, Wagner, Williamson would be my ideal world lineup with no injuries.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Yeah New Zealand's record of 1 win, 8 losses and 3 draws since Vettori destroyed his ankle is obvious evidence of this trend.

Better than 0 wins 301 losses or whatever it was.

 

[hendrix]

Well, not strictly youth, but Wagner definitely got a rough cut imo. Boult, Southee, Milne, Wagner, Williamson would be my ideal world lineup with no injuries.

agreed that Wagner got a rough cut, but playing 4 specialist pacers is a bad idea anywhere in the subcontinent and even England or NZ these days. If the first 3 can't get the job done I don't see what the 4th adds.

Even South Africa try to play a spinner.

 

[Bahnz]

Better than 0 wins 301 losses or whatever it was.

The marginal uptick in New Zealand's performances since Vettori dropped out is almost entirely down to Southee and Boult being brought into the side and establishing themselves as a quality new-ball pairing. It has nothing to do with Vettori's absence encouraging the rest of the team "stand up" or some nebulous crap like that.

 

[hendrix]

Better than 0 wins 301 losses or whatever it was.

Vettori has been involved in 33 test wins.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

agreed that Wagner got a rough cut, but playing 4 specialist pacers is a bad idea anywhere in the subcontinent and even England or NZ these days. If the first 3 can't get the job done I don't see what the 4th adds.

Even South Africa try to play a spinner.

the notion that you have to play a specialist spinner in the SC is bull**** imo, probably encouraged by the home sides if anything. What kind of bowlers do they face regularly? Spinners. What kind of bowlers would they love to face? Spinners. What kind of bowlers are generally a cut or two (or ten, in our case) below the rest of touring side's bowlers? SPINNERS.

The fourth pacer adds a hell of a lot imo. If one guy is having a bad day which is often going to happen, you're not running two of your guys into the ground or watching him leak at 5 rpo.

 

[Maximas]

The Vettori absence to become another CW New Zealand community conspiracy

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Vettori has been involved in 33 test wins.

and I'd love for him to build on that. Unless he revives his batting then I have my doubts.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

The marginal uptick in New Zealand's performances since Vettori dropped out is almost entirely down to Southee and Boult being brought into the side and establishing themselves as a quality new-ball pairing. It has nothing to do with Vettori's absence encouraging the rest of the team "stand up" or some nebulous crap like that.

Probably. We'll see.

 

[hendrix]

What kind of bowlers are generally a cut or two (or ten, in our case) below the rest of touring side's bowlers? SPINNERS.

Neil Wagner test bowling average: 42 economy rate: 3.32

This is our 3rd or 4th best seamer.

No, he is not ten cuts above Vettori. He's a cut below Vettori.

It feels like dan's economy in tests is being slightly overstated. He was getting picked off at near 3 an over without getting any wickets when he was last playing.

Economy rates from yesterday:
Boult: 1.66
Bracewell: 6.25
Martin: 6.66
Sodhi: 3.37
Anderson: 2.66
Williamson: 3.60

This wasn't a Sehwag or Jayasuriya going after the bowling. All Mominul did was put away the bad balls, of which there were plenty.

It is very, very clear to me that at the moment there's Southee and Boult and noone within miles of that level in our bowling attack. Vettori is the only proven performer close to their level.