Top ten greatest bowlers and batsmen of all time

[Migara]

We've done this dance: SL and India are the best places to bowl spin in the world and they're also two of the best spin-playing teams in the world during that time. Warne already showed what he could do on Murali's pitches and Murali showed how ineffective he was on Warne's.

The comparable part of their record is how they did in India, and Warne did better.

No it isn't. warne was awful against India let it be home or away, test or ODI. There is no hiding from it.

Fantastic, now show us the innings where he was shellacked to the point that his figures go south of Warne's.

And conviniently forgetting that Shane Warne never bowled to Virender Sehwag at his best, the best player of spin in current era, at least in his prime.

Warne has a better record in India than Murali. Warne also has the best series against India for both of them.

Against same Indian sides Murali has a better average. Warne didn't play the best Indian side of the era.

Warne has better ratios than Murali in India. That's not disputable. Murali took 40 wickets in 11 matches; Warne took 34 in 9 matches. If you want to refer to Innings, Warne bowled less even if he played more innings.

When they played together against same sides, Murali has better stats, And he always had the edge against India than Warne in any surface he bowled.

Murali had 2 5fers, Warne had 1.

Shows Warne was hidden from the attack while Murali took the brunt of it. Murali had no McGrath or gillespie to hide behind. If Warne was in SL side against India would average above 75.

And Warne had several career threatening injuries during that period. What was Murali's excuse?

Having injuries is an excuse! Your superstar is a fat unfit ****. That's why he gets injured. Fitter players are better players, and it's simple as that.

 

[Burgey]

If Warne had bent his elbow more when he bowled, maybe his injuries wouldn't have been as bad.

Booyah.

 

[kyear2]

If Warne had bent his elbow more when he bowled, maybe his injuries wouldn't have been as bad.

Booyah.

Nice.

 

[Red]

I can make the ball spin a foot when I straighten my arm.

Not as accurately as Murali mind you...

 

[watson]

No it isn't. warne was awful against India let it be home or away, test or ODI. There is no hiding from it.

'Awful' is hyperbole. Relative to his usual excellent figures Warne could have done better. But relative to other spinners he did very well against the Indian team. All spinners had problems against India when they were at their peak, including Murali.

And conviniently forgetting that Shane Warne never bowled to Virender Sehwag at his best, the best player of spin in current era, at least in his prime.

VVS Laxman was judged by many to be the best player of spin in the Indian team, so it hardly matters that Warne 'never' bowled to Sehwag.

Against same Indian sides Murali has a better average. Warne didn't play the best Indian side of the era.

Of course Warne played against the best Indian side of the era - a series featuring a certain 281 springs to mind.

When they played together against same sides, Murali has better stats, And he always had the edge against India than Warne in any surface he bowled

This is nonsense. Again;

Warne in India: 9 Tests (1998-2004), 34 wickets, Ave = 43, SR = 81
Murali In India: 11 Tests (1994-2009), 40 wickets, Ave = 45, SR = 86

Shows Warne was hidden from the attack while Murali took the brunt of it. Murali had no McGrath or gillespie to hide behind. If Warne was in SL side against India would average above 75.

Warne was never hidden from the attack - rather he was front and centre in most Test matches. Especially on Day 4-5 as the lone spinner.

Having injuries is an excuse! Your superstar is a fat unfit ****. That's why he gets injured. Fitter players are better players, and it's simple as that.

Yes it is an excuse. Bowling over-the-wrist-leg-spin is obviously more taxing on the shoulder than off-spin. If Murali bowled as many leg-breaks as Warne did then he'd probably need an operation too.

 

[hendrix]

Is Sehwag supposed to be the best player of spin in the Indian team because of that one series when Mendis first came on the scene?

 

[Burgey]

I don't think so. He just brutalizes it.

 

[Paul S]

'
Of course Warne played against the best Indian side of the era - a series featuring a certain 281 springs to mind.

Warne retired before India formed their best batting line-up. They had guys like Ramesh, Das, Kaif in early to mid-2000s.

This is the best Indian top 6 I've seen

Sehwag
Gambhir
Dravid
Tendulkar
Ganguly
Laxman

I think they had that side in the Test series Mendis emerged. That's probably why he was rated so highly those days.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Warne retired before India formed their best batting line-up. They had guys like Ramesh, Das, Kaif in early to mid-2000s.

This is the best Indian top 6 I've seen

Sehwag
Gambhir
Dravid
Tendulkar
Ganguly
Laxman

I think they had that side in the Test series Mendis emerged. That's probably why he was rated so highly those days.

Warne didn't face only Gambhir and Sehwag(at his peak) which is more than made up by the fact that when Warne faced Tendulkar and Laxman in 2001 they were in a purple patch. He didn't stand much of a chance... Plus in 1998, Tendulkar was playing like Bradman, and India also had Sidhu and Azharuddin.
Fact is, he didn't produce anywhere near the sort of amazing spell that Murali did once ( the doosra to Dhoni, why I'd it not on YouTube FFS.?) but the odds were stacked heavily against him

 

[Paul S]

Warne didn't face only Gambhir and Sehwag(at his peak) which is more than made up by the fact that when Warne faced Tendulkar and Laxman in 2001 they were in a purple patch. He didn't stand much of a chance... Plus in 1998, Tendulkar was playing like Bradman, and India also had Sidhu and Azharuddin.
Fact is, he didn't produce anywhere near the sort of amazing spell that Murali did once ( the doosra to Dhoni, why I'd it not on YouTube FFS.?) but the odds were stacked heavily against him

Having a very good opening pair matters a lot in my opinion, because you'll hardly find them 3 down for 60 when the spinner comes on. There is clearly more pressure on the spinner.

 

[Migara]

Warne didn't face only Gambhir and Sehwag(at his peak) which is more than made up by the fact that when Warne faced Tendulkar and Laxman in 2001 they were in a purple patch. He didn't stand much of a chance... Plus in 1998, Tendulkar was playing like Bradman, and India also had Sidhu and Azharuddin.

Murali also bowled to the same players around same time. Just nullifies the argument

 

[OverratedSanity]

Warne and Murali are two of the greatest spinners ever. Now that we've got that out of the way.....

Murali also bowled to the same players around same time. Just nullifies the argument

And he got clobbered by them as well. 93/94 Sidhu and Tendulkar pummelled him. 97/98 he got punished by those two + Azharuddin the same way Warne was that year.
Next we come to 2001. Murali was outstanding, unlike Warne in his series against India that year. But while Warne faced a full strength attack capable of tearing any spinner to pieces, Murali faced the likes of Muhammad Kaif and Hemang Badani. Both Tendulkar and Laxman were missing on that tour.

So really, That's all I'm saying, that Murali and Warne both got pummelled repeatedly by India's best batsmen against spin. Don't get me wrong, Murali did pretty well against us in 05/06 and brilliant in 08 as well and overall did better than Warne, but Warne had slightly worse luck in terms of timing whenever he faced us we had a freaking monstrous lineup, and missed that infamous 2004 match at Mumbai where he would have destroyed us... Clarke took 6/9 FFS

In conclusion, Murali did better against India, but Warne could've done well too, had he had some more luck. So I don't really look at their records against India when I try to separate them

 

[kyear2]

This seems to put everything into proper context.

Don't get the argument though. They both were awesome and they both had issues vs India and Lara. They are two of the top three spinners who ever lived and the length of their careers, their consistency and the fact that they both played on covered, modern pitches places them well above O'Reilly in 3rd.

It is nearly impossible to separate them as bowlers and the two small advantages I give to Warne is that leg spin is harder to master than off spin and Murali played on more helpful home pitches and even those two are minimal at best. They are both champions and among the greatest cricketers ever.

 

[Migara]

Warne and Murali are two of the greatest spinners ever. Now that we've got that out of the way.....


And he got clobbered by them as well. 93/94 Sidhu and Tendulkar pummelled him. 97/98 he got punished by those two + Azharuddin the same way Warne was that year.
Next we come to 2001. Murali was outstanding, unlike Warne in his series against India that year. But while Warne faced a full strength attack capable of tearing any spinner to pieces, Murali faced the likes of Muhammad Kaif and Hemang Badani. Both Tendulkar and Laxman were missing on that tour.

So really, That's all I'm saying, that Murali and Warne both got pummelled repeatedly by India's best batsmen against spin. Don't get me wrong, Murali did pretty well against us in 05/06 and brilliant in 08 as well and overall did better than Warne, but Warne had slightly worse luck in terms of timing whenever he faced us we had a freaking monstrous lineup, and missed that infamous 2004 match at Mumbai where he would have destroyed us... Clarke took 6/9 FFS

In conclusion, Murali did better against India, but Warne could've done well too, had he had some more luck. So I don't really look at their records against India when I try to separate them

Warne never played the last tour that Murali did in India. Would have got pummeled more. Having said that both Tendulkar and Laxman were not as brilliant as Sidhu, Sehwag or Azhar against Murali, and struggled at some times. But those two were superb against Watne. And IIRC Warne never bowled to Kambli in his prime too.

And a very interesting statistic is that, in matches in India where the Warne was involved, the overall batting average was 33.24 while in matches Murali involved it was a whopping 47.23 (both teams involved). Murali arguably bowled on much flatter tracks against India as it looks like. But I do admit that SL players do play spin better (although the stats don't support the theory, SL - 27.2, AUS -31.2 than Aussie players and Aussies did have McGrath in their bowling lineup. But still the 14 point difference doesn't cut in. This has to be taken in seriously when the dispute is only about a 3-4 run difference in the average, which is in the higher territory.

 

[Migara]

I give to Warne is that leg spin is harder to master than off spin

Murali is not off a shelf off spinner. HE is one of his own kind (perhaps with Prasanna) who used the wrist to bowl off break. Possibly ever more difficult than what Warne did

 

[Paul S]

This seems to put everything into proper context.

Don't get the argument though. They both were awesome and they both had issues vs India and Lara. They are two of the top three spinners who ever lived and the length of their careers, their consistency and the fact that they both played on covered, modern pitches places them well above O'Reilly in 3rd.

It is nearly impossible to separate them as bowlers and the two small advantages I give to Warne is that leg spin is harder to master than off spin and Murali played on more helpful home pitches and even those two are minimal at best. They are both champions and among the greatest cricketers ever.

More like, wrist spin is difficult to master. Murali bowled wrist spin although he was an off spinner. Same case with left arm chinaman.

 

[Paul S]

As I said before, best to leave it as - Murali (off spinner of our time), Warne (leg spinner of our time).

Can't comment on bowlers who played many decades ago. Ranking them without watching or comparing players across eras hardly makes any sense. For example, you can't compare modern batsmen with guys who played in the 80s.

 

[Red]

Warne and Murali are two of the greatest spinners ever. Now that we've got that out of the way.....

There was a fair amount of cricket played prior to Warne and Murali's careers btw.

 

[OverratedSanity]

There was a fair amount of cricket played prior to Warne and Murali's careers btw.

I didn't say otherwise

 

[Red]

My apologies. I thought you said "Warne and Murali are the two greatest spinner ever"