*Official* English Football Season 2013-14

[Cabinet96]

I wonder if the pitches play a part. A lot of the football I played at school was on absolute mud baths and the best way to to progress up the field would be to hoof it downfield. Same people I played with would always try and play some decent football on astroturf pitches as well.

Obviously you'd expect pitches, as a general rule, to be much better in continental europe, particularly a country like Spain.

 

[Furball]

Yeah, would def put Tevez & Masch in the "became world class after arrival" category. Alonso and Torres too.

Nah ****.

 

[Pothas]

When I was a lad, youth football was dominated by Tony Pulis-style "kick it and run, Land of Hope and Glory, get stuck in, 4-4-2" coaches. If this is still the same, and I see no evidence to suggest anything to the contrary, it's no wonder that England continue to produce footballers who are all engine and no skill. I don't at all rate Brendan Rodgers, but at least he appears to encourage an attractive style of play which encourages the development of decent core footballing techniques. I'm not sure I can think of many other British coaches, old or young, who operate under a similar ethos. No idea what this is like in the lower leagues, but until more people attempt to do this, it's not looking good.

I do think the quality of football has improved quite a bit in the lower leagues in recent years and I think there are some British managers who put out decent sides but the style is still largely 'traditional' English. Less teams play 4-4-2, at least the sides that visit Griffin Park do, but a 4-5-1, 4-2-3-1 etc. can be played in exactly the same way.

Brentford certainly try and play more passing football these days (not that it always works) but then our manager is not British. There are a fair few Bees fans constantly moaning that we don't play 4-4-2, are too negative, and that we should get an old fashioned lower league manager. Is a right pain, especially when they hated the hoof-ball we used to play under previous managers.

 

[Furball]

In general, I'm inclined to think the blame it on the foreigners routine is nothing but a lazy excuse which papers over the cracks of decades of crap coaching and institutional negligence. It is totally disingenuous to pretend that the only difference between the English and German national sides (since all the cretins seem to insist on making this comparison whenever this debate comes up, and then go on to wax philosophical about 1966), and their respective qualities, is a disparity between the number of foreign imports in their domestic leagues. The problems in the England side stem far deeper than that.

After Euro 2000 Germany totally ripped out all of their training programs etc... at the youth and grassroots levels, and came up with more modern regimes which encouraged technical proficiency. England, despite having a similarly ****house tournament, and to all intents and purposes being just as bad a side, has taken until now to even start to consider doing such a thing. It's just nonsense. This should be the first port of call when looking for deep-rooted problems.

When I was a lad, youth football was dominated by Tony Pulis-style "kick it and run, Land of Hope and Glory, get stuck in, 4-4-2" coaches. If this is still the same, and I see no evidence to suggest anything to the contrary, it's no wonder that England continue to produce footballers who are all engine and no skill. I don't at all rate Brendan Rodgers, but at least he appears to encourage an attractive style of play which encourages the development of decent core footballing techniques. I'm not sure I can think of many other British coaches, old or young, who operate under a similar ethos. No idea what this is like in the lower leagues, but until more people attempt to do this, it's not looking good.

The thing with taking the German approach to youth football is that you need the patience to wait 10 years minimum for results.

It's only now that Germany are seeing the full fruit of what they've done at youth level, and even then, for some strange reason Germany have a massive abundance of goalkeepers and technically gifted central midfielders, number 10s or wide men in a 4-2-3-1 (Özil, Götze, Kroos, Muller, Reus, Draxler, Schurrle, Gundogan, Bender twins, Holtby). They're producing **** all strikers and their defence isn't too great either (although that might be a by-product of Löwe being an absolute clown of a coach).

However, our ills (and I'm referring to Britain as a whole here) is our deep-rooted attitude to ball games. They're manly pursuits, where you're meant to get stuck in and work hard - we don't hate things like diving because they're cheating, we hate them because they're unmanly. The attitude crosses over to rugby as well, when you look at the "Union vs League" argument you can always spot a British Unionite a mile off because they sing the praises of things like the scrum or forwards getting stuck in at the breakdown and being all manly. Actually spreading the ball and passing it and running with it (in both rugby and football) is an after thought.

 

[Furball]

Was about to say Veron, Robinho another example.

Veron was a great player though, in full agreement with Ferguson on that one.

We have seen a lot of proven talent (if not highest level) arrive in recent years though, just look at this summer with Soldado, Navas, Negredo etc and Cazorla last year. The drain from Spain to the Premiership is definetly going to continue for the next few years.

La Liga is completely and utterly ****ed. The league's a complete basket case, only Barcelona, Real Madrid and Athletic Bilbao are run anywhere near competently and in today's world Bilbao will struggle to compete whilst they restrict themselves the way they do.

You can actually start to make a fairly decent squad of Spanish players who no longer play in La Liga - Pepe Reina, David de Gea, Cesar Azpilicueta, Raul Albiol, Nacho Monreal, Javi Martinez, Javi Garcia, Santi Cazorla, Jesus Navas, David Silva, Thiago Alcantara, Alvaro Negredo, Roberto Soldado, Fernando Torres, Fernando Llorente, Juan Mata. That sort of talent would seriously enhance the sides outwith the top 2 - you only need to look at Valencia who have lost Villa, Soldado, Silva, Mata and Jordi Alba in the last 5 years - and that will really hurt the competitiveness of the league.

 

[Pothas]

La Liga is completely and utterly ****ed. The league's a complete basket case, only Barcelona, Real Madrid and Athletic Bilbao are run anywhere near competently and in today's world Bilbao will struggle to compete whilst they restrict themselves the way they do.

You can actually start to make a fairly decent squad of Spanish players who no longer play in La Liga - Pepe Reina, David de Gea, Cesar Azpilicueta, Raul Albiol, Nacho Monreal, Javi Martinez, Javi Garcia, Santi Cazorla, Jesus Navas, David Silva, Thiago Alcantara, Alvaro Negredo, Roberto Soldado, Fernando Torres, Fernando Llorente, Juan Mata. That sort of talent would seriously enhance the sides outwith the top 2 - you only need to look at Valencia who have lost Villa, Soldado, Silva, Mata and Jordi Alba in the last 5 years - and that will really hurt the competitiveness of the league.

Yeah it is a total joke. Simoene has has done an amazing job at Atletico, but you wonder how long they will be able to keep it up for, with the way they have been run over the years. They have sort of been getting away with it for a few years (even if has stopped being competitive at the top) because they produce such a ridiculous amount of talent in Spain but they can't be having many more summers like they just had. You still get some really good football at times, the games last weekend were a mile more enjoyable than one we got on 'Super Sunday' but it could be so much better it had anything approaching decent finances and organization.

 

[Uppercut]

There's defo a case for putting Suarez into that category as well. He had a good reputation and all, but that was largely built on dismantling teams in the Eredivisie.

A lot of the players that are coming up sort of fall in between already being superstars and becoming good in England. Suarez, Van Nistelrooy, Torres, Alonso, Mascherano and Tevez definitely didn't become good in England, you could tell they were already quality by watching their first five or ten games here. But you could argue that they weren't quite A-listers yet either. I reckon they sort of used the Premiership to prove how good they already were.

I'm not sure how many examples there are of seeing a foreign player look very raw at first but become world-class after an extended run in the side. Henry and Ronaldo are the obvious two, and Drogba too, but I can't think of too many more.

For a while we got quite a few older players with big reputations rocking up at relegation-threatened clubs. Djorkaeff in particular was still clearly an incredible player, and Okocha, Campo and Dugarry were all quality too. Big European clubs didn't seem interested in hanging onto these players. Which was strange, because someone like Giggs has been making a real contribution to winning titles for years while well below the level Djorkaeff was at with Bolton.

 

[sledger]

I'm not sure how many examples there are of seeing a foreign player look very raw at first but become world-class after an extended run in the side. Henry and Ronaldo are the obvious two, and Drogba too, but I can't think of too many more.

Vieira imo.

 

[Uppercut]

Yeah I'd probably have him somewhere in between. Van Persie too is a huge one I forgot about, and there are a handful of defenders like Kompany and Vidic that improved a lot while they were here. But most of these guys had such extraordinary potential from the start that you couldn't really argue that they blocked an English equivalent from reaching the same level.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Well, for whatever reason, English teams seem loath to give younger English players a go in the top flight.

Look at van Ginkel, still only twenty but when the Chavs signed him he'd already played nigh on 100 games for Vitesse Arnhem.

Compare to (say) Jake Livermore. Well enough thought of to be a full international already, but has made fewer than 40 appearances for T*ttenham despite being three years older and having debuted two years earlier.

Might just be van Ginkel's better (he probably is), but T*ttenham's midfield wasn't so flash that it made Levy think twice before spending the better part of £80m on improving it.

 

[Uppercut]

I think that's indicative of a different problem- young players preferring to spend formative years in the reserves of big clubs rather than getting regular game time somewhere else. Andros Townsend's a good advert for the loan system- he's got in 100 games at 9 different clubs and rocks up at the club this summer looking like the real deal.

 

[Ikki]

I think that's indicative of a different problem- young players preferring to spend formative years in the reserves of big clubs rather than getting regular game time somewhere else. Andros Townsend's a good advert for the loan system- he's got in 100 games at 9 different clubs and rocks up at the club this summer looking like the real deal.

While Townsend has done this, I think it is ridiculous that he has been sent out to 9 different clubs in the first place. 9 clubs since 2009...playing hardly any games in most of them to get into any kind of groove. 9 different clubs and all bar 1 of them (QPR last year) in the lower leagues.

This kind of loan system is less about developing the player and more about top clubs hoarding talent at a young age, passing off the responsibility of improving them to lower teams that can't afford to outright buy the player, then getting the player back "ready-made".

 

[Furball]

I think that's indicative of a different problem- young players preferring to spend formative years in the reserves of big clubs rather than getting regular game time somewhere else. Andros Townsend's a good advert for the loan system- he's got in 100 games at 9 different clubs and rocks up at the club this summer looking like the real deal.

There's also a curious British train of thought that just doesn't trust young players. The best example was Hansen's 'you don't win anything with kids' remark, but it manifests itself elsewhere. Michael Higdon, who's just left Motherwell and joined NEC Breda in the Netherlands, in an interview mentioned in an interview that some of the younger players at the club were very talented but he thought the team needed a bit more experience. It was an odd comment that could only have been made by a British player.

The other thing that the Spaniards and Germans do that we don't do in this country is allow clubs to field B sides in the league system. It allows younger players the chance to play competitive football without actually leaving their parent club.

 

[Uppercut]

While Townsend has done this, I think it is ridiculous that he has been sent out to 9 different clubs in the first place. 9 clubs since 2009...playing hardly any games in most of them to get into any kind of groove. 9 different clubs and all bar 1 of them (QPR last year) in the lower leagues.

This kind of loan system is less about developing the player and more about top clubs hoarding talent at a young age, passing off the responsibility of improving them to lower teams that can't afford to outright buy the player, then getting the player back "ready-made".

Nah this is arse gravy. The parent club invests vastly more time and energy into a player's development than the club they're loaned to. Game time more or less is the only aspect of development that the club they're loaned to provides, and they only even provide it because they get a quality player in return.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

One thing about my club (I know we are only in league 1 but the point stands) that surprises me is the fact that the majority of our fans are moaning that we have no experience in the side. In a few games this season we have played 4 players that have come through our youth team and also have 3 quality youngsters on loan from Middlesbrough and Villa. Add in Wildig who we got off Cardiff and we have a very young but quite exciting side coming together. If us playing the two lads from Boro for half/full season helps both clubs I see nothing wrong with it but the amount moaning from fans that want the club to sign XYZ who would be on mega wages is amazing. Many clubs lower down are having to reign in the spending and taking decent young players on long term loans is essential for both parties, GIMH will tell you that Tranmere used the loan system well in the first half of last season and that is the way many clubs are going now so embrace it not ridicule it.

The one thing that stands out among English fans is the way they seem desperate for experienced players and that they get stuck in and get the ball forward quickly. Until that mindset changes we have no chance.

 

[Uppercut]

There's also a curious British train of thought that just doesn't trust young players. The best example was Hansen's 'you don't win anything with kids' remark, but it manifests itself elsewhere. Michael Higdon, who's just left Motherwell and joined NEC Breda in the Netherlands, in an interview mentioned in an interview that some of the younger players at the club were very talented but he thought the team needed a bit more experience. It was an odd comment that could only have been made by a British player.

The other thing that the Spaniards and Germans do that we don't do in this country is allow clubs to field B sides in the league system. It allows younger players the chance to play competitive football without actually leaving their parent club.

Yeah, I'm not sure they should either. There's a bit of a trade-off to be made because if the national team was the only priority you would want an exclusive focus on the top-tier clubs at the expense of everyone else. It's more or less what you have in Spain, it doesn't matter if it compromises the competitiveness of the lower leagues as long as it's good for Barca and Real (and, as a result, the national team). I mean, I'm not saying it's worse the way they do things. But there's a unique depth to English footballing culture that needs to be preserved.

 

[grecian]

One thing about my club (I know we are only in league 1 but the point stands) that surprises me is the fact that the majority of our fans are moaning that we have no experience in the side. In a few games this season we have played 4 players that have come through our youth team and also have 3 quality youngsters on loan from Middlesbrough and Villa. Add in Wildig who we got off Cardiff and we have a very young but quite exciting side coming together. If us playing the two lads from Boro for half/full season helps both clubs I see nothing wrong with it but the amount moaning from fans that want the club to sign XYZ who would be on mega wages is amazing. Many clubs lower down are having to reign in the spending and taking decent young players on long term loans is essential for both parties, GIMH will tell you that Tranmere used the loan system well in the first half of last season and that is the way many clubs are going now so embrace it not ridicule it.

The one thing that stands out among English fans is the way they seem desperate for experienced players and that they get stuck in and get the ball forward quickly. Until that mindset changes we have no chance.

Yep all this is very true, it's very depressing the mindset of so many fans.

Particularly how they'll get on the back of some youngsters learning their game.

Sometimes you get the football sides you deserve.

 

[Uppercut]

Yep all this is very true, it's very depressing the mindset of so many fans.

Particularly how they'll get on the back of some youngsters learning their game.

Sometimes you get the football sides you deserve.

I'm always amazed at how quickly fans are willing to write off players for good. Heard so many people say that Ramsay or Welbeck "will never be good enough" last season, it's as if deep down they don't believe players are allowed to improve. Similarly players that work hard off the pitch developing immaculate technique can still get typecast as "lazy" when alcoholic smokers that tear around the pitch leaving a foot in are seen as "committed".

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Yep all this is very true, it's very depressing the mindset of so many fans.

Particularly how they'll get on the back of some youngsters learning their game.

Sometimes you get the football sides you deserve.

Forgot the other two obsessions, an engine and pace.

 

[Furball]

I'm always amazed at how quickly fans are willing to write off players for good. Heard so many people say that Ramsay or Welbeck "will never be good enough" last season, it's as if deep down they don't believe players are allowed to improve.

That comes from the laziness that sets in around a club when it can afford to just buy better players than their opponents. Rangers being the prime example.