***Official*** New Zealand in England series 2013

[CWB304]

I tend to disagree that Anderson is the most skillful. Steyn generates greater swing, with greater consistency and similar accuracy, from a faster arm action. That takes immense skill and control.

The only thing Jimmy has over Steyn is that he has a much better inswinger. But that alone does not make him more skillful.

This reminds me a bit of that phase the NZ media went through of calling Daniel Vettori the "best left arm spinner in the world", a grand title, but one that didn't change the fact that there were still half dozen international spinners who were obviously much better bowlers.

Good post. Better inswinger by bowler who bowls more slowly and with less control = "most skillful". Why is it that some people - and I've found this trait to be all too common in England - always seem to be looking to give something homegrown, and of which they are quite justifiably proud, a completely inappropriate degree of praise, which at times becomes so indiscriminate as even to cross over into idolatry?

Why can't such people - I assume they're either thick, or "on something" - just be content to acknowledge Ronnie Scott's as a pretty good jazz club, and not "the best jazz club in the world"; Wimbledon as a very prestigious tennis tournament, one of four with slightly different characteristics, which all have their particular pros and cons, that all the best players want to win, and not "the greatest tennis tournament in the world"; British TV as pretty good (and especially by comparison to the fare on offer in countries like Italy and Germany), but not necessarily "the best television in the world"; and Jimmy Anderson as a bloody good bowler, whom we cricket lovers are very fortunate to be watching in his prime, but not "the most skillful bowler in the world".

Why always this mania for unreserved adulation? Why this constant mockery-inducing quest for the absolute? By this unthinking rush to declare Anderson "the most skillful" - which, despite the mealy-mouthed denials, is basically just a proxy for "the best" which they can't openly declare as the mere existence of Steyn and Philander would make such an assertion outlandish - they actually poison one's enjoyment of watching this fantastic bowler by making one look out all the more keenly for his flaws - just to counter their heady enthusiasm.

I've recounted the anecdote once before of having had the enjoyment of watching Graham Thorpe play a wonderful innings against the convicts utterly ruined by a fat-faced idiot sat next to me, who couldn't stop hailing him as "by far the best" left handed batsmen in the world, "much better" than Lara. Such stupidity makes me physically sick.

 

[straw man]

Well, apparently Vettori is fit afterall.

Cricket | Daniel Vettori in line for test return | Stuff.co.nz

Coach Mike '****' Hesson confirmed fellow left-arm spinner Bruce Martin (calf strain) was out of the tour and that Vettori, New Zealand's second-highest test wicket-taker, was in serious consideration to replace him in the second test at Leeds, starting on Friday. "Daniel's come over 24 hours earlier for us to have a chance to have a look at him. We won't be pushing Dan if he's not ready but if he is we'd certainly love to have him," Hesson said.

Jeetan Patel is also a consideration if Vettori isn't considered ready. The off-spinner took a five-wicket bag for Warwickshire last weekend and is "in the frame" to join the side if required, Hesson said.

Playing four pacemen and recalling Doug Bracewell is another option but Hesson hinted that was less likely.

"We'll look at the conditions but looking at the games at Headingley so far this year, spinners have played their part. It's a lot drier than it has been in the past."

Gah, no Bracewell by the looks of things.

For the record I think Vettori playing in place of Bartin is a bad idea. Despite lack of FC matches he could probably trundle in and bowl like he has for the last few years with his eyes closed (and what does that really add?). But I cannot see his batting being up to scratch and he's a liability in the field these days.

Jeets' continued wicket-taking in County div 1 brings me to tears. It's one of the great mysteries in the universe, like he's playing roulette and black has come up 18 times out of 20. I just don't get it.

There was better news for wicketkeeper BJ Watling who suffered a badly bruised knee at Lord's which saw him hand over the gloves to Brendon McCullum. Hesson said he was making good progress. "We're hopeful if he continues that he'll be a good chance for the second test."

If Watling is ruled out, Tom Latham and McCullum are candidates to replace him. Luke Ronchi arrives on Wednesday with the ODI squad and Hesson said he would only be considered if Latham or McCullum weren't seen as suitable options.

Fingers crossed for Watling, even though he didn't bat well in the first test.

 

[CWB304]

csb

Is that meant to be funny? Can I 'quote' you in the same imaginary way as you have just 'quoted' me, in the future? And where did you get that "philistine" line from, and what does "csb" stand for? You appear to be a complete and utter moron.

 

[hendrix]

I have a big soft spot for jeets and it'd be nice for him to get ago on a turning wicket against poor players of spin.

He's also a good fielder.

 

[Pothas]

Good post. Better inswinger by bowler who bowls more slowly and with less control = "most skillful". Why is it that some people - and I've found this trait to be all too common in England - always seem to be looking to give something homegrown, and of which they are quite justifiably proud, a completely inappropriate degree of praise, which at times becomes so indiscriminate as even to cross over into idolatry?

Why can't such people - I assume they're either thick, or "on something" - just be content to acknowledge Ronnie Scott's as a pretty good jazz club, and not "the best jazz club in the world"; Wimbledon as a very prestigious tennis tournament, one of four with slightly different characteristics, which all have their particular pros and cons, that all the best players want to win, and not "the greatest tennis tournament in the world"; British TV as pretty good (and especially by comparison to the fare on offer in countries like Italy and Germany), but not necessarily "the best television in the world"; and Jimmy Anderson as a bloody good bowler, whom we cricket lovers are very fortunate to be watching in his prime, but not "the most skillful bowler in the world".

Why always this mania for unreserved adulation? Why this constant mockery-inducing quest for the absolute? By this unthinking rush to declare Anderson "the most skillful" - which, despite the mealy-mouthed denials, is basically just a proxy for "the best" which they can't openly declare as the mere existence of Steyn and Philander would make such an assertion outlandish - they actually poison one's enjoyment of watching this fantastic bowler by making one look out all the more keenly for his flaws - just to counter their heady enthusiasm.

I've recounted the anecdote once before of having had the enjoyment of watching Graham Thorpe play a wonderful innings against the convicts utterly ruined by a fat-faced idiot sat next to me, who couldn't stop hailing him as "by far the best" left handed batsmen in the world, "much better" than Lara. Such stupidity makes me physically sick.

Carlsberg definitely not the best lager in the world.

I know what you are saying but this really is a non-issue.

 

[Bahnz]

Gah, no Bracewell by the looks of things.

For the record I think Vettori playing in place of Bartin is a bad idea. Despite lack of FC matches he could probably trundle in and bowl like he has for the last few years with his eyes closed (and what does that really add?). But I cannot see his batting being up to scratch and he's a liability in the field these days.

Jeets' continued wicket-taking in County div 1 brings me to tears. It's one of the great mysteries in the universe, like he's playing roulette and black has come up 18 times out of 20. I just don't get it.

Jeets hasn't been doing that well for Warks this season. 15 wickets at 34 is nothing to shout about.

I agree that Vettori's inclusion wouldn't be a good one. Since injuring himself against WI, he's played...what, 2 list A games? There's just no way he's ready to go back to test cricket. This whole episode smacks of panic stations by the selectors.

 

[Flem274*]

If Bucko is out then it has to be four quicks at Headingley.

 

[Howe_zat]

I'm sorry to hear about your sickness CWB. I hope you get better soon.

In the mean time, maybe sport just isn't for you?

 

[Bahnz]

If Bucko is out then it has to be four quicks at Headingley.

Nah, Vettori's callup is pretty much proof that McCusson are wedded to the idea of taking a spinner into the second test. Given that that's the case, I'd still go for Vettori over Jeets. Even if he has been out of the game for 9 months, his batting can't possibly be worse than Dave's. And as straw man noted, Vettori can always be relied upon to seel up an end with his meticulously accurate darts.

 

[KungFu_Kallis]

Jeetan Patel

 

[CWB304]

i'm a cu*t

Are you really? Shame....

 

[KungFu_Kallis]

Re Anderson, while he averages 8 more than Steyn, he's only 1 run per wicket less than Broad and 2 less than the average bowler's average across history (32) according to a Jarrod Kimber article I read. Sure averages ain't everything but across this many Tests I think it's a fair reflection. Most skilled in the world? Do me a favour. After Mr Saker anointed Stuart Broad "the enforcer" a couple years back this isn't exactly surprising I suppose.

 

[tooextracool]

Think people are conflating 'skilled' with 'skilful' with regards Anderson and Steyn, Saker included. Anderson has more things in the bowling kitbag (skills) but Steyn uses what he has in his better (more skilfully). Saker himself was more the former than latter, incidentally.

So Saker's right, in my book. I doubt he's saying Anderson's a better bower than Steyn.

Bang on the money. Craig White is the perfect example of a bowler who arguably possessed every skill under the sun, yet the fact that he was barely 6 ft and bowled with a slingy action and a flat trajectory meant that when he lost a yard of pace (as he did post injury) he was rendered utterly ineffectual.

Steyn is extremely skillful, and as I've said before a lot of his success is down to that snap of the wrist at the point of delivery which is just phenomenal. Whether or not he would be as effective bowling at 80mph is another story all together, but the reality is that he is the one of the most effective bowlers at utilizing his skills and that is enough to make him the best bowler in the world.

 

[Dan]

Bang on the money. Craig White is the perfect example of a bowler who arguably possessed every skill under the sun, yet the fact that he was barely 6 ft and bowled with a slingy action and a flat trajectory meant that when he lost a yard of pace (as he did post injury) he was rendered utterly ineffectual.

Steyn is extremely skillful, and as I've said before a lot of his success is down to that snap of the wrist at the point of delivery which is just phenomenal. Whether or not he would be as effective bowling at 80mph is another story all together, but the reality is that he is the one of the most effective bowlers at utilizing his skills and that is enough to make him the best bowler in the world.

The best bowlers are Darren Gough\Craig White-type movement bowlers who have a large amount of the natural assests: height, pace and accuracy. A la Dennis Lillee, Michael Holding, Curtley Ambrose. Most of the best bowlers also have a perfect natural action.

Couldn't help but put this here.

 

[tooextracool]

Finn then was very raw and very clueless; he's a totally different bowler now. Dropping him at this stage for Bresnan or any of the alternatives would be a step back towards the days of clueless chopping and changing. He's now clearly the third English seamer and has the express pace, which the first two lack, that makes for a great balance with Broad and Anderson. When the current version of Bresnan is bowling he all too often seems as if he's just trying to get through his overs and keep things reasonably tight while the genuine wicket taking threats rest up; Finn is nothing if not a wicket-taking threat.

Also just as I'd agree with you about his first innings showing, I'd equally disagree with what you seem to have taken away from it. When a bowler has a knack of getting wickets at okayish economy for "flattering" figures having not bowled particularly well, it tends not to be a fluke and should give the coach/selectors confidence to keep picking him - look at Botham's career and the number of times he finished up with figures like Finn's in the first dig having been far from his best. Anyway, congrats to England and good to see Broad back; now that he's fully fit I expect to see him kick on very strongly from here.

Its quite frankly a bit strange to argue that Finn is not clueless anymore when his go to ball is the short delivery and nothing else. I understand that England have invested a lot in Finn, and he has not performed atrociously for someone his age, but the reality is that hes often a liability going at over 3.6 runs an over. His record seems to indicate that if anything as a bowler he seems to have regressed, his average and S/R has gotten considerably worse over the past 2 years.

Nor for that matter is there any voodoo or witchcraft behind what players like Finn do on the field. This is the same kind of perverse logic and mental falsehoods that were perpetuated as justifications for the continual selections of Steve Harmison and Mitchell Johsnon. The reality is that when these bowlers themselves or the cricketing fraternity cant justify exactly what they did to deserve wickets then they probably didnt do anything to deserve them in the first place.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Ah neat, my youth team is struggling as I'm focusing on seniors for a bit. Looks like you might be doing something similar with no strong 16/17yo players in your squad.

Yeah. More through necessity rather than design, sadly. I've had nothing but useless youth pulls for quite some time.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Couldn't help but put this here.

lolwut, Darren Gough was short right?

 

[Top_Cat]

Nor for that matter is there any voodoo or witchcraft behind what players like Finn do on the field. This is the same kind of perverse logic and mental falsehoods that were perpetuated as justifications for the continual selections of Steve Harmison and Mitchell Johsnon. The reality is that when these bowlers themselves or the cricketing fraternity cant justify exactly what they did to deserve wickets then they probably didnt do anything to deserve them in the first place.

Yeah but you can; he's tall, quick and hits the seam so he'll take poles. Guys like that are still very useful, you can manage that they go for a few more than other bowlers if they're taking wickets (Johnson only really lost favour when exactly that happened). How useful they are is fairly dependent on who else is at the other end but, either way, on track for 100 wickets by 25 Tests is a record worthy of respect at least.

 

[Dan]

I'm sorry to hear about your sickness CWB. I hope you get better soon.

In the mean time, maybe sport just isn't for you?

Are you really? Shame....

Cut it out, both of you.

 

[Jezroy]

Whadda ya mean "again"?

Mind you, not like Bartin rags it square, is it?

Re: Vettori turning the ball - you don't remember the 90's?