The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[watson]

Yup, although it was a risky eleven in terms of bowling. Barnes-Lillee opening with Imran-Warne to follow.

My quirky Barnes ATG XI

Hobbs
Barry
Don
Viv
Sobers
Gilly +
Imran
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
Barnes

Generally prefer McGrath to Hadlee (did it on worse pitches), and Wasim to Imran (because of left arm variety), but the batting aspect overcomes that. Marshall-Warne at 9-10 is not a bad combo.

As an aside, what do folks here think of a Marshall-McGrath-Robers (Andy) bowling attack, with Warne/Murali?

Gilchrist-Imran-Hadlee at 6-7-8 is possibly too weak for an ATG team.

Miller spent most of his career at No.5, or 36 innings to be precise (average 42). Only on 4 occasions did he bat at No.7. In-other-words, he is a natural middle-order batsman.

Therefore, Miller-Gilchrist-Imran at 6-7-8 is inherently quite strong as each batsman is in a position that is more usual to them. I don't ever recall Gilchrist batting at No.6 in a Test match.

 

[NUFAN]

My lineup with Barnes:

1 Jack HOBBS
2 Sunil GAVASKAR
3 Don BRADMAN
4 Garry SOBERS
5 Brian LARA
6 Adam GILCHRIST
7 Imran KHAN
8 Malcolm MARSHALL
9 Shane WARNE
10 Curtly AMBROSE
11 Sydney BARNES

I actually love this five man attack. Sobers to bat at 4 to almost solely focus on batting.

 

[watson]

Sobers-Lara-Gilchrist in the middle-order? That team is totally ridiculous NUFAN. But I mean that in a nice way.

 

[NUFAN]

Haha yeah it's not my normal team or anything, I normally go for a more traditional 6 bats, keeper, spinner and 3 quicks such as:

1 Hobbs 2 Hutton 3 Bradman 4 Richards 5 Hammond 6 Sobers 7 Gilchrist 8 Warne 9 Marshall 10 Ambrose 11 McGrath

 

[watson]

If the truth be known NUFAN your ridiculous team would probably beat your traditional team.

 

[kyear2]

Prefer your traditional team Nufan. I will reiterate that for me Miller is over kill as a fifth bowler and not good enough of a batsman for an A.T. XI especially considering he is replacing Tendulkar/Richards/Lara/Hammond. In addition doing all of this to include a batsman that no one alive has ever seen play, that we will never be fully sure what exactly he bowled and one that we are not sure if what he would have bowled would have transferred to the modern era minus under prepared stickey wickets and matting pitches vs over matched opponents. Especially when at the expence of the two fast bolwers who have proven themselves the world over in all conditions and opponents.

 

[the big bambino]

The pitches of Barnes' era were much the same as you'd find in any other. Some good, some bad. Frankly you'd be brave to omit a man who could exploit all types of pitches and bowl every delivery expertly apart from express. You'd want him in your side if only to stop your opponents picking him against you. Because it'd be pretty funny seeing him turn up for his lancashire league team and bowling out your team of champions for under a hundred.

 

[Red]

I will reiterate that for me Miller is over kill as a fifth bowler and not good enough of a batsman for an A.T. XI .

Why?

 

[kyear2]

For me the role of the 5th bowler is just to assist with rotation and for rest if required for the primary four bowlers. The two best teams ever used four bowlers with Viv tossing in a few overs if required. Marshall, Warne and Mcgrath are each capable of marathon spells and maintainig effectiveness and Sobers is more than good enough to provide relief, keeping an end quiet and breaking a key partnership.

Having a fifth bowler who might bowl about 10 overs an innings at most isn't worth sacrifcing having Viv Richards or Sachin Tendulkar in your team. Just my take.

 

[Eds]

I'd most definitely bring Barnes in as the spinner if I really wanted to find a place for him.

Hobbs
Hutton
Bradman
Tendulkar
Hammond
Sobers
Gilchrist
Khan
Marshall
Ambrose
Barnes

 

[kyear2]

Makes sense to me and the most logical place for him if he has to be included.

 

[Red]

For me the role of the 5th bowler is just to assist with rotation and for rest if required for the primary four bowlers. The two best teams ever used four bowlers with Viv tossing in a few overs if required. Marshall, Warne and Mcgrath are each capable of marathon spells and maintainig effectiveness and Sobers is more than good enough to provide relief, keeping an end quiet and breaking a key partnership.

Having a fifth bowler who might bowl about 10 overs an innings at most isn't worth sacrifcing having Viv Richards or Sachin Tendulkar in your team. Just my take.

I do see your point. I just like the idea of Miller so much personally!

Having Miller, Sobers and Viv in the same team is such a cool thought.

 

[watson]

For me the role of the 5th bowler is just to assist with rotation and for rest if required for the primary four bowlers. The two best teams ever used four bowlers with Viv tossing in a few overs if required. Marshall, Warne and Mcgrath are each capable of marathon spells and maintainig effectiveness and Sobers is more than good enough to provide relief, keeping an end quiet and breaking a key partnership.

Having a fifth bowler who might bowl about 10 overs an innings at most isn't worth sacrifcing having Viv Richards or Sachin Tendulkar in your team. Just my take.

But you can't rotate a lone specialist spin bowler if that's all you've got. The purpose of having 2 specialist spin bowlers is that the team has 2 options on Day 5 when the pitch is wearing and there's rough-patches to aim at. Warne was pretty fit, but it is a big ask for any bowler to bowl 3 sessions on the trot. And importantly, the beauty of having Barnes in the side is that he is both a swing bowler and spinner at the same time which means he is relevant for all 5 days. Not saying that Warne can't pick up wickets on Day 1, but you know what I mean.

There is little doubt that an attack consisiting of 3xFast Bowlers, and 2xSpin Bowlers gives the attack maximum potency and flexibility - no matter the state of the wicket or weather. Throw in Sobers and everything gets even better. In other words, being able to rotate 3 specialist pace bowlers on a green-wicket (Day 1-2), and 2 specialist spinners on a wearing-wicket (Day 4-5) would be a joy to any captain. And possibly worth the difference in batsmanship between Miller and Lara (for example).

So I guess it boils down to a matter of principle: Batting depth or Bowling depth?

 

[smash84]

I'd most definitely bring Barnes in as the spinner if I really wanted to find a place for him.

Hobbs
Hutton
Bradman
Tendulkar
Hammond
Sobers
Gilchrist
Khan
Marshall
Ambrose
Barnes

Now this is a very very good idea.

 

[Red]

This be an XI of my favourite cricketers (for various reasons)...


- Barry Richards
- Gordon Greenidge
- Brian Lara
- Mark Waugh
- Archie Jackson
- Keith Miller
- Ian Botham
- Kapil Dev
- Godfrey Evans
- Shane Warne
- Dennis Lillee

 

[Coronis]

An XI of my favourites, hmm:

1. Herbert Sutcliffe
2. Barry Richards
3. Kumar Sangakkara
4. Jacques Kallis
5. Shiv Chanderpaul
6. Mike Procter
7. Adam Gilchrist
8. Wasim Akram
9. Shane Warne
10. Muttiah Muralitharan
11. Glenn McGrath

Only thing is, I have no idea who'd be captain..

 

[watson]

I really like the look of the above two teams.

But here is my, 'Would Mortgage my House to See Play' team;

01. Jack Hobbs
02. Victor Trumper
03. Don Bradman
04. Graeme Pollock
05. Keith Miller
06. Frank Woolley
07. Alan Knott
08. Mike Procter
09. Neil Adcock
10. Arthur Mailey
11. Sydney Barnes

 

[Red]

I really like the look of the above two teams.

But here is my, 'Would Mortgage my House to See Play' team;

01. Jack Hobbs
02. Victor Trumper
03. Don Bradman
04. Graeme Pollock
05. Keith Miller
06. Frank Woolley
07. Alan Knott
08. Mike Procter
09. Neil Adcock
10. Arthur Mailey
11. Sydney Barnes

Have you seen the brief footage of Archie Jackson on the Cricket Archives DVD Watson? Technique like silk. So fluent.

 

[watson]

Have you seen the brief footage of Archie Jackson on the Cricket Archives DVD Watson? Technique like silk. So fluent.

I did see the footage of Archie Jackson. Great player, excellent video.

However, you can only fit so many icons into an eleven man cricket team. Didn't want to miss out on seeing Hobbs, Trumper, or Bradman, and the thought of watching Pollock bat along side Woolley is just too mouth watering.

 

[kyear2]

But you can't rotate a lone specialist spin bowler if that's all you've got. The purpose of having 2 specialist spin bowlers is that the team has 2 options on Day 5 when the pitch is wearing and there's rough-patches to aim at. Warne was pretty fit, but it is a big ask for any bowler to bowl 3 sessions on the trot. And importantly, the beauty of having Barnes in the side is that he is both a swing bowler and spinner at the same time which means he is relevant for all 5 days. Not saying that Warne can't pick up wickets on Day 1, but you know what I mean.

There is little doubt that an attack consisiting of 3xFast Bowlers, and 2xSpin Bowlers gives the attack maximum potency and flexibility - no matter the state of the wicket or weather. Throw in Sobers and everything gets even better. In other words, being able to rotate 3 specialist pace bowlers on a green-wicket (Day 1-2), and 2 specialist spinners on a wearing-wicket (Day 4-5) would be a joy to any captain. And possibly worth the difference in batsmanship between Miller and Lara (for example).

So I guess it boils down to a matter of principle: Batting depth or Bowling depth?

Since the covered pitch era how many teams outside of the subcontinent has utilised two specialist spinners? It is part of a forgotten era and in this instance Warne can hold down an.end on the final day while the fast men rotates from the other end. If Warne.needs a break Sobers can fill in for a few overs with his left arm spin. And least we forget the W.I. dominated everywhere for over a decade, included the subcontinent using no spinners at all. Ambrose for instance was as effective as any spinner on a last day pitch as was
Marshall, Holding, Garner ect and they were all match winners. We didn't go with four fast bowlers because we couldn't find a spinner, it was a stategic move and it was succesful.