***Official*** England in New Zealand series 2013

[Flem274*]

Southee was excellent in the world cup and has been a good odi bowler for a reasonable period. Definitely the only guy I would have in both tests and ODIs.

Mills, Southee, McClenaghan should be our three frontline pacemen in ODIs for a bit imo.

 

[NZTailender]

McCullum comes in for some unfair criticism. Over the last 12 months he is our 2nd most economical bowler in ODI matches at under 5 (Second only to MIlls who also has taken his fair share of unwarranted criticism)

However we are short on options and that hurts us. Nathan is an integral part of this team, he jsut needs to knuckle down with the willow to make sure that he can get us that crucial 20 off 15 whnever he comes to the crease and in desperate situations can be a guy that sticks around when we are collapsing.

I just don't think it's worth it. If he was more consistent, was taking at least 1 wicket per game and scoring 20 in every 2-3 matches it might be, but he isn't. We should be looking for better

McCullum is a bowler though.

He's a batting all-rounder at best. He's got more value as a lower-order hitter than as a bowler. But he's probably untouchable as there are no over real spinners in the country who could be potentially relied on with the bat (ftr, don't think NcCullum is too reliable either).

 

[Flem274*]

He's a batting all-rounder at best. He's got more value as a lower-order hitter than as a bowler. But he's probably untouchable as there are no over real spinners in the country who could be potentially relied on with the bat (ftr, don't think NcCullum is too reliable either).

Well tbh he's neither at the ODI level, but he's definitely picked as primarily a bowler who can do some lower order slogging.

It's a shame the Ford Trophy only gets underway once our ODI summer ends. We only really have domestic 20/20 to use as a guide for ODI selection atm.

 

[Mike5181]

Bitching about N Mac is pointless. He wouldn't still be in the team with his record if there was anyone else capable of replacing him. Our full strength team would be something like this:

1. Jesse Ryder
2. Martin Guptill
3. Kane Williamson
4. Ross Taylor
5. Grant Elliot/BJ Watling
6. Brendon McCullum
7. James Franklin/another allrounder/Ronchi
8. Nathan McCullum
9. Kyle Mills
10. Tim Southee
11. Mitchell McClenaghan

Matt Henry/Bevan Small/Adam Milne should be close to the squad if they're fit, and performing well in domestic cricket.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

The only reason McCullum is our second most economical bowler is because his lovely brother makes sure he always bowls in the middle overs where batsmen are **** scared of taking any risks.

 

[Flem274*]

I know it won't happen judging by how keen they are to get him in there but I'd rather we just let Adam Milne develop for test cricket and become the real deal. Starting to think that unless a spinner explodes really soon that we should just go with four pacemen on non-turners like the Windies used to and have Williamson as our spinner.

McCullum
Flynn
Williamson
Taylor
Brownlie
Ryder
Watling
Bracewell
Southee
Milne/Henry/someone I like
Boult

/nowastedspots

that team is unlikely to ever happen though since even if we ditch conventional wisdom, McCullum has gone off opening in tests.

 

[Mike5181]

The only reason McCullum is our second most economical bowler is because his lovely brother makes sure he always bowls in the middle overs where batsmen are **** scared of taking any risks.

Well, he should be bowling in the middle overs.

 

[Bahnz]

LegSide Southee?
Miracle Ball Southee?

Not a OD bowler, and to be honest I would rather he played First Class Cricket and Tests (I would rather that with all three of Southee, Boult and Bracewell) but there is not a lot of depth there that can allow us to do that.

??? With the exception of his admittedly dreadful performance in 2 ODI's against South Africa in early 2012, Southee has taken 42 wickets at 22 apiece in the last 2 years.

If I have to take one I am going with Boult, but he is an early innings bowler. Likely needs to bowl an opening spell of 7 and then come back for 3 in the middle when the ball is still 12-15 overs old.

Southee, though he has a far larger sample size, does not separate himself from Boult in either List A or ODI cricket. The one name that strangely does separate themselves in List A cricket is Neil Wagner.

Wagner's List A record is heavily biased by his early years in SA's second division domestic competition. He's actually done quite poorly in list A cricket in New Zealand (averaging about 34 in the last 2 seasons).

 

[Mike5181]

I know it won't happen judging by how keen they are to get him in there but I'd rather we just let Adam Milne develop for test cricket and become the real deal. Starting to think that unless a spinner explodes really soon that we should just go with four pacemen on non-turners like the Windies used to and have Williamson as our spinner.

I'm definitely not against us trialing Williamson as the main ODI spinner at some point, especially if N Mac continues to be ****. Maybe just for a game or two. He can't perform much worse than him, surely.

 

[straw man]

Starting to think that unless a spinner explodes really soon that we should just go with four pacemen on non-turners like the Windies used to and have Williamson as our spinner.

Should be a CW rule that the terminology here is 'chuck a few down'.

K

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Well, he should be bowling in the middle overs.

Yeah the point being it stops his economy rate from being a substantial bragging point. I don't think going 0-50 from 10 should be considered a valuable contribution in that phase of the game, it's barely passable.

 

[Flem274*]

Wagner is an interesting case. I do think if he was given an extended run in test matches he would produce some brilliance, but overall we would get Mitchell Johnson like returns from him. He will win one game in five or one game in ten for us but be below par 80% of the time. Australia got away with it for a while but I don't think this New Zealand side can or needs to include a bowler like Wagner when we already have Boult and Wheeler (jury still out on McClenaghan in whites imo).

 

[Mike5181]

Yeah the point being it stops his economy rate from being a substantial bragging point. I don't think going 0-50 from 10 should be considered a valuable contribution in that phase of the game, it's barely passable.

In the last two ODIs he's bowled the full ten overs for 46 runs, and 42 runs. If he can do that every game I'd take that, even if he's not taking wickets.

 

[straw man]

In the last two ODIs he's bowled the full ten overs for 46 runs, and 42 runs. If he can do that every game I'd take that, even if he's not taking wickets.

He can get by with that if he also regularly scores 25(20) and takes a difficult catch or runs someone out imo.

We have Elliott, NcCullum, Franklin, Munro and Ellis that all want to bat a bit and bowl a bit and perform those vital 'bits and pieces' roles. Potentially Neesham and Anderson some time soon too. There's surely only enough space for 2-3 of those, max.

What are NcCullum and Franklin's ODI numbers in last couple of years? From memory I think they should be reasonable for both.

 

[Mike5181]

He can get by with that if he also regularly scores 25(20) and takes a difficult catch or runs someone out imo.

We have Elliott, NcCullum, Franklin, Munro and Ellis that all want to bat a bit and bowl a bit and perform those vital 'bits and pieces' roles. Potentially Neesham and Anderson some time soon too. There's surely only enough space for 2-3 of those, max.

What are NcCullum and Franklin's ODI numbers in last couple of years? From memory I think they should be reasonable for both.

Both terrible. I was looking at them not too long ago. N Mac is like 17/46 ER 5. Franklin 26/42 ER 5.5.

 

[NZTailender]

Both terrible. I was looking at them not too long ago. N Mac is like 17/46 ER 5. Franklin 26/42 ER 5.5.

Franklin's improved in that time while NcCullum has been consistently average. Last 12 months.

 

[straw man]

@Mike
Yes you're right - they're worse than I thought. Last two years:

NcCullum
Batting: 343 @ 17.9 SR: 87
Bowling: 18 @ 46.9 Econ: 5.1

That's really pretty rubbish

Franklin
Batting: 313 @ 26.1 SR: 82
Bowling: 9 @ 42.3 Econ: 5.4

Franklin's batting significantly better. His econ rate is slightly worse than NcCullum's but he also sometimes bowls at or near the death.

 

[Bahnz]

Guptill's doubtful 4 the 1st test.

 

[_Ed_]

Bates didn't really do anything wrong.

He really didn't. Kind of a mystery to me how spectacularly he's been discarded.

 

[hendrix]

Guptill's doubtful 4 the 1st test.

excellent news