Geoff Armstrong- The 100 Greatest Cricketers

[social]

2500+ runs @51 from 50+ tests with 5 tons - respectable . but not stunning..
unlike kapil/miller/procter/botham imran can not dominate atg bowlers of mars11

kallis - less than 2wkts/match .

sobers , procter , kapil , miller , botham... imran , hadlee , s.pollock.. all r better IMO

Considering how good Imran was as a bowler, it is absolutely amazing

Proctor was totally unproven

Kapil was no more than a decent hitter and not in the same league as Imran as a bowler

Miller was obviously a great talent but ....

Botham had a few great years and never performed against the best of his time

Hadlee was a slogger and nothing more

Pollock is underrated but probably Imran-lite

Anyway, Tendulkar rates Kallis as the best player of his generation (including being better than he is) if I am not mistaken and that is hardly surprising given the guy has scored 40 odd centuries and taken nearly 300 wickets

Criminally underrated and should be the first player chosen after Bradman

 

[Ikki]

sobers
Jan 1961 to Dec 1968
33 125 27.93 76.3 5/ 0

almost 4 / match

miller 3/match
imran the atg bowler weakens batting and fielding

So you've isolated a 6-7 year peak where he was a very good bowler, ignoring the 13-14 years of tripe.

 

[L Trumper]

So you've isolated a 6-7 year peak where he was a very good bowler, ignoring the 13-14 years of tripe.

It depends how you rate a player. How much one rate a player's peak ability and/or longevity. Eg. Ponting for roughly 8 years averaged in mid to low 40s, other 8 years averaged around 70.

 

[Ikki]

Even if that is your standard, and you are consistent with that reasoning, all the other bowlers have similar peaks of even greater performances. Averaging 28 @ 76 isn't that impressive.

 

[L Trumper]

Even if that is your standard, and you are consistent with that reasoning, all the other bowlers have similar peaks of even greater performances. Averaging 28 @ 76 isn't that impressive.

But avg 28@76 is pretty good at his time, during that time he was one of the 5 best bowlers in the world. Although I'd agree in an all-time XI sobers as a third quick is a bit risky.

 

[Satyanash89]

Having Sobers as a third seamer is bordering on ridiculous... he was a decent bowler, no more. Would be like picking Miller at No. 5... which some people have done, amazingly

 

[akilana]

Having Sobers as a third seamer is bordering on ridiculous... he was a decent bowler, no more. Would be like picking Miller at No. 5... which some people have done, amazingly

So is playing Miller at 5 against an ATG attack.

 

[Satyanash89]

So is playing Miller at 5 against an ATG attack.

umm..... thats what i said, isnt it?

 

[kyear2]

Having Sobers as a third seamer is bordering on ridiculous... he was a decent bowler, no more. Would be like picking Miller at No. 5... which some people have done, amazingly

Totally agree, Sobers was a very good fifth bowler (4th seamer), no more, no less. Selcting two spinners either asks us to use Sobers as first change or bat Miller at five or six which is equally rediculous in an ATG XI

 

[kyear2]

umm..... thats what i said, isnt it?

It is.

 

[social]

But avg 28@76 is pretty good at his time, during that time he was one of the 5 best bowlers in the world. Although I'd agree in an all-time XI sobers as a third quick is a bit risky.

If Sobers was ever one of the top 5 bowlers in the world, then the standard must have been pretty ordinary

 

[akilana]

umm..... thats what i said, isnt it?

Haha. Yes. Sorry. Doesn't help when using a blackberry's small screen to read

 

[L Trumper]

If Sobers was ever one of the top 5 bowlers in the world, then the standard must have been pretty ordinary

Yes! At that time it was poor. Mid to late 60s.

 

[sobers no:1]

Considering how good Imran was as a bowler, it is absolutely amazing

Proctor was totally unproven

Kapil was no more than a decent hitter and not in the same league as Imran as a bowler

Miller was obviously a great talent but ....

Botham had a few great years and never performed against the best of his time

Hadlee was a slogger and nothing more

Pollock is underrated but probably Imran-lite

Anyway, Tendulkar rates Kallis as the best player of his generation (including being better than he is) if I am not mistaken and that is hardly surprising given the guy has scored 40 odd centuries and taken nearly 300 wickets

Criminally underrated and should be the first player chosen after Bradman

1. an ATG allrounder = match winning batsman + match winning bowler + great fielder ( excusable ) = sobers , procter , kapil , botham and miller .
anything was possible for kapil / miller / botham..etc but you wont dream imran hitting 95 ball century against holding / marshal / garner / roberts.
2.procter - his FC stats = 2nd best AR of alltime . i am selecting him , assuming he has the talent . so is your assumptions makes ur team . we are picking players from different eras , different teams ..etc to play against an imaginary 11 . stats/history wont help u there , wht matters is real talents in their prime . stats helps u to find / scale the talents to an extent . thats all.
3. kapil can win the match either with ball or bat. add ATG fielding. he was an under achiever in general perception. these makes me think imran better player , kapil better AR.
4.miller - the main issue is 3wkts/match . i deduct some points for the era he played. lesser competitiveness , no: of opponents..etc
5.hadlee at his peak averaged 30+ with bat ( =35 today) . not bad
6.pollock = underrated . agreed ( so is kapil and procter (compared to barry richards )
7.kallis 300 wkts = longevity

 

[Red]

So is playing Miller at 5 against an ATG attack.

Kallis aside, Miller was a far better batsman than all the other all-rounders we're talking about. Miller was a proper top order batsman, and a proper opening bowler. If he'd been a batsman only, I've no doubt he'd have averaged somewhere around 50 with the bat. Unique cricketer. There haven't been many (if any) other true opening bowlers with the batting ability to legitimately fill a spot in the top 5.

 

[sobers no:1]

So you've isolated a 6-7 year peak where he was a very good bowler, ignoring the 13-14 years of tripe.

8 years
peaks defines greatness in most cases
for me sobers means those 8yrs
33mtchs 125wkts 3000+runs

 

[Ikki]

But avg 28@76 is pretty good at his time, during that time he was one of the 5 best bowlers in the world. Although I'd agree in an all-time XI sobers as a third quick is a bit risky.

That's kind of my point. You are removing 13-14 years of a bowler's entire record, to base it on a "pretty good" period which is still not near the relative standard of his teammates and opposition. That's why 2 specialist pacers and 2 specialist spinners with an all-rounder like Sobers is very risky - too risky.

So is playing Miller at 5 against an ATG attack.

What's risky about it?

Whether you bat Miller at 5 or 8, he still has to bat and since he is the best batsman of the bowling all-rounders it's fine. On the other hand, not everyone has to bowl. Therein the difference exists.

 

[fredfertang]

Having Sobers as a third seamer is bordering on ridiculous... he was a decent bowler, no more. Would be like picking Miller at No. 5... which some people have done, amazingly

On a seamer's wicket Sobers was a top class bowler - he was well nigh unplayable at Lord's in this match, to give an isolated example - but as he should be playing in any truly representative all time XI as a batsman anyway the argument about his bowling is purely academic anyway

....... and as for Miller he's a pain in the neck in these sort of debates because he is the best possible example of why stats don't give you a full picture

 

[MrPrez]

Basically, Miller is a version of Mike Proctor with slightly better batting, and more convincingly worse bowling.

I still rate Kallis ahead of guys like Imran and Proctor as an all-rounder due to the fact that I feel it is much harder to be a sustainable pace-bowling batting all-rounder as opposed to a bowling one. Initially some might feel that the strain is equal, but if you think about it Kallis put all of his effort into his batting, and then had to come out and bowl at close to 140kph, whereas Proccy/Imran had much less strain on themselves in batting at 7 or wherever.

 

[Ikki]

8 years
peaks defines greatness in most cases
for me sobers means those 8yrs
33mtchs 125wkts 3000+runs

So 33 matches outweighs the 60 other tests he bowled with avg. 41, sr. 110?

That peak isn't good enough, even as it is. Whether Sobers scored a lot of runs isn't the issue because on his batting alone he has a place. We're talking about the drop in bowling quality one has to deal with when using him as a 3rd seamer.

Miller is ideal for such a role because his average and strike rate overall (let alone his peak) is world-class/ATG class. His limitation is less wickets per Test than other ATG bowlers but as a 3rd seamer it's not really an issue.