Geoff Armstrong- The 100 Greatest Cricketers

[sobers no:1]

That Sobers is a very average bowler and if you are competing with a very talented team akin to your own you are at a significant disadvantage. If you wanted such a line-up you'd have to pick a bowling-allrounder who was world-class/ATG at that level - preferably Miller, or Imran.

sobers
Jan 1961 to Dec 1968
33 125 27.93 76.3 5/ 0

almost 4 / match

miller 3/match
imran the atg bowler weakens batting and fielding

 

[Satyanash89]

Can anybody give me anything in Lillee's resume that is [unique/ greater or better than anybody else/ completely out of the norm/ never been done, never will be done] ? As far as I can remember of him, the only answer is his wonderful action, and the fact that he made a wonderful comeback after injury. This business about the never-giving-up-attitude, and the always-planning-to-get-the-batsman-out mindset has always seemed so much like baloney to me, that I cannot stress it enough. Obviously Hadlee, Imran etc. never thought this way, how could they have, this was Lillee's territory.

Variation wise, Imran, Marshall, and Wasim have one up on him.
Stats wise, everyone knows.
Hadlee, Imran, Wasim, McGrath, Marshall were all proven matchwinners in th subcontinent.
How is he any more of a 'Complete Fast Bowler' than Hadlee and Marshall, somebody please explain to me.

This all is not to say that I don't think Lillee is an ATG. In fact, he was awesome as much as I remember. But that is not the point.

The one thing that stands out to me is that he has 23 five fors and 7 10wms... (one every 10 matches!) which is amazing. He even had much more competition from his own bowlers than say, someone like hadlee. Picking up wickets in big bunches like that wins matches.

And as others have said, WSC stats if included make his stats incredible (theyre still fantastic). Him and Viv richards both did brilliantly in WSC and their stats would be awesome if included.
While i dont quite agree with most experts who rate him above Marshall and Hadlee, i do think he's very underrated here... he's in the absolutely elite top tier.

 

[social]

sobers
Jan 1961 to Dec 1968
33 125 27.93 76.3 5/ 0

almost 4 / match

miller 3/match
imran the atg bowler weakens batting and fielding

Pretty sure that Imran averaged over 50 with the bat for an extended period of his career so you can use selected stats to support most players.

Anyway, just pick Kallis as nothing of that sort is required to boost his case

 

[Coronis]

The one thing that stands out to me is that he has 23 five fors and 7 10wms... (one every 10 matches!) which is amazing. He even had much more competition from his own bowlers than say, someone like hadlee. Picking up wickets in big bunches like that wins matches.

And as others have said, WSC stats if included make his stats incredible (theyre still fantastic). Him and Viv richards both did brilliantly in WSC and their stats would be awesome if included.
While i dont quite agree with most experts who rate him above Marshall and Hadlee, i do think he's very underrated here... he's in the absolutely elite top tier.

Don't forget Chappell too, when talking of WSC.

 

[Howe_zat]

CW did a voted-in version

World XI (1)
1. J Hobbs 2. L Hutton 3. D Bradman 4. V Richards 5. S Tendulkar 6. G Sobers 7. A Gilchrist+ 8. I Khan 9 S. Warne 10. M Marshall 11. G McGrath

World A XI (2)
1. S Gavaskar 2. H Sutcliffe 3. G Headley 4. B Lara 5. W Hammond 6. J Kallis 7. A Knott+ 8. R Hadlee 9. W Akram 10. C Ambrose 11. M Muralitharan

World B XI (3)
1. B Richards 2. V Trumper 3. G Chappell 4. G Pollock 5. A Border 6. K Miller 7. L Ames+ 8. D Lillee 9. F Trueman 10. B O'Reilly 11. S Barnes

World C XI (4)
1. G Boycott 2. W.G Grace 3. R Ponting 4. K Barrington 5. S Waugh 6. C Walcott+ 7. I Botham 8. A Davidson 9. M Holding 10. J Laker 11. A Donald

World D XI (5)
1. G Greenidge 2. M Hayden 3. R Dravid 4. D Compton 5. E Weekes 6. F Worrell 7. D Lindsay+ 8. S Pollock 9. R Lindwall 10. J Garner 11. C Grimmett

World E XI (6)
1. G Gooch 2. A Morris 3. N Harvey 4. J Miandad 5. D Nourse 6. A Flower+ 7. M Procter 8. R Benaud 9. D Steyn 10. A Roberts 11. W Younis

World F XI (7)
1. B Mitchell 2. B Simpson 3. K Sangakkara 4. K Ranjitsinhji 5. C Macartney 6. C Lloyd 7. K Dev 8. D Tallon+ 9. H Verity 10. H Larwood 11. C Walsh

World G XI (8)
1. V Merchant 2. H Mohammad 3. S McCabe 4. K Pietersen 5. S Chanderpaul 6. A Faulkner 7. F Engineer+ 8. H Tayfield 9. A Bedser 10. I Bishop 11. C Croft

World H XI (9)
1. G Smith 2. V Sehwag 3. R Kanhai 4. M Crowe 5. Inzamam ul-Haq 6. D Walters 7. I Healy+ 8. M Tate 9. A Kumble 10. W Hall 11. J Snow

World I XI (10)
1. W Ponsford 2. W Lawry 3. T Dexter 4. P May 5. D Gower 6. A Greig 7. J Dujon+ 8. P Pollock 9. C Turner 10. B Statham 11. L Gibbs

 

[Satyanash89]

Don't forget Chappell too, when talking of WSC.

Yeah but thing is, Chappell's average is an outstanding 53.8 without WSC and people generally look at Lillee and Viv's averages and think that they are unremarkable compared to other greats (which is baloney). Thats why i mentioned those two

 

[social]

One guy that is definitely overrated on these lists is Jeff Thomson

Whilst he was devastating in Australia for about 2 years (he was never the same bowler after suffering a shoulder injury against Pakistan in 76/77), the rest of his record is patchy and has some major holes in it.

Off the top of my head, it could certainly be argued that Jason Gillespie, Craig McDermott, Brett Lee and even Merv Hughes were better bowlers for Australia than Thommo in the last couple of decades

Naturally, if you take in the rest of the world, the list would be far larger

 

[Satyanash89]

One guy that is definitely overrated on these lists is Jeff Thomson

Whilst he was devastating in Australia for about 2 years (he was never the same bowler after suffering a shoulder injury against Pakistan in 76/77), the rest of his record is patchy and has some major holes in it.

Off the top of my head, it could certainly be argued that Jason Gillespie, Craig McDermott, Brett Lee and even Merv Hughes were better bowlers for Australia than Thommo in the last couple of decades

Naturally, if you take in the rest of the world, the list would be far larger

Agree with all them, except Lee.
Gillespie i think is definitely very underrated

 

[fredfertang]

One guy that is definitely overrated on these lists is Jeff Thomson

Whilst he was devastating in Australia for about 2 years (he was never the same bowler after suffering a shoulder injury against Pakistan in 76/77), the rest of his record is patchy and has some major holes in it.

Off the top of my head, it could certainly be argued that Jason Gillespie, Craig McDermott, Brett Lee and even Merv Hughes were better bowlers for Australia than Thommo in the last couple of decades

Naturally, if you take in the rest of the world, the list would be far larger

I'd have said that two years of devastation and the fact that the best part of 40 years on he still haunts the memories of those he bowled at like no other bowler they faced in their careers is more a sign of greatness than 15 years of consistency, but then I can see the other side of the argument as well

 

[Red]

I'd have said that two years of devastation and the fact that the best part of 40 years on he still haunts the memories of those he bowled at like no other bowler they faced in their careers is more a sign of greatness than 15 years of consistency, but then I can see the other side of the argument as well

Yeh, I think it's safe to say that if you surveyed all batsmen throughout history on who they'd least like to face (esp sans helmet), Thommo'd come out on top. And even if he does say so himself, on his day, he was irrepressible.

Re. Lillee, I've not seen a more ferocious competitor. That (along with the mo), is why I rate him so highly. That's why I want him in my team.

 

[watson]

Any bowler who can bounce Tony Greig at the SCG so that the ball half-volleys the side screen is a long way toward being an ATG fast bowler. That's a bloody long way for a ball to travel in one go.

 

[Coronis]

Any bowler who can bounce Tony Greig at the SCG so that the ball half-volleys the side screen is a long way toward being an ATG fast bowler. That's a bloody long way for a ball to travel in one go.

Speed =/= greatness.

 

[watson]

Speed =/= greatness.

It does if you happen to be the only bowler in the whole history of the game to half-volley the side screen. It's a uniqueness thing.

 

[Satyanash89]

It does if you happen to be the only bowler in the whole history of the game to half-volley the side screen. It's a uniqueness thing.

Disagree because you called it the side-screen

 

[MrPrez]

Is there actually any video footage of that? I'm not quite sure I believe it tbph.

Anyway, my team is:

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Bradman
Tendulkar
Kallis
Sobers
Gilchrist
Warne
Marshall
McGrath
Ambrose

I know I have an immense manlove for Kallis that will probably be ripped to shreds, but he, for me, is as good as any of SRT, Lara, Ponting etc even if he isn't lauded for it due to his "boring" nature. He fulfills the "rock" role within the team - to me he is the best "defensive" middle order batsman the world has ever seen.

Ambrose gets in due to him complimenting the skiddiness of Marshall, and the metronomic accuracy and seam movement of McGrath. It may be arguable whether he is the 3rd best pacer in history, but I'm picking my AT XI based on what the best team ever would be, not on who the best 11 players ever are.

 

[benchmark00]

At 5.40 here Thompson bowls a ball that bounces twice and hits the fence, not inconceivable at all that he could have done it on the one bounce

Lillee and Thompson 1974/75 - YouTube

 

[Coronis]

Is there actually any video footage of that? I'm not quite sure I believe it tbph.

Anyway, my team is:

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Bradman
Tendulkar
Kallis
Sobers
Gilchrist
Warne
Marshall
McGrath
Ambrose

I know I have an immense manlove for Kallis that will probably be ripped to shreds, but he, for me, is as good as any of SRT, Lara, Ponting etc even if he isn't lauded for it due to his "boring" nature. He fulfills the "rock" role within the team - to me he is the best "defensive" middle order batsman the world has ever seen.

Ambrose gets in due to him complimenting the skiddiness of Marshall, and the metronomic accuracy and seam movement of McGrath. It may be arguable whether he is the 3rd best pacer in history, but I'm picking my AT XI based on what the best team ever would be, not on who the best 11 players ever are.

I'd rather get rid of Tendulkar than Kallis.

 

[centurymaker]

I'd rather get rid of Sutcliffe and Ambrose.

 

[watson]

Is there actually any video footage of that? I'm not quite sure I believe it tbph.

Anyway, my team is:

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Bradman
Tendulkar
Kallis
Sobers
Gilchrist
Warne
Marshall
McGrath
Ambrose

I know I have an immense manlove for Kallis that will probably be ripped to shreds, but he, for me, is as good as any of SRT, Lara, Ponting etc even if he isn't lauded for it due to his "boring" nature. He fulfills the "rock" role within the team - to me he is the best "defensive" middle order batsman the world has ever seen.

Ambrose gets in due to him complimenting the skiddiness of Marshall, and the metronomic accuracy and seam movement of McGrath. It may be arguable whether he is the 3rd best pacer in history, but I'm picking my AT XI based on what the best team ever would be, not on who the best 11 players ever are.

Jeff Thomson talks about hitting the side screen on the half-volley in the following video. The relevant bit is at the 2 min 10 sec mark.

Jeff Thomson - YouTube

 

[sobers no:1]

Pretty sure that Imran averaged over 50 with the bat for an extended period of his career so you can use selected stats to support most players.

Anyway, just pick Kallis as nothing of that sort is required to boost his case

2500+ runs @51 from 50+ tests with 5 tons - respectable . but not stunning..
unlike kapil/miller/procter/botham imran can not dominate atg bowlers of mars11

kallis - less than 2wkts/match .

sobers , procter , kapil , miller , botham... imran , hadlee , s.pollock.. all r better IMO