The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Coronis]

I think I had Barnes in here at some point, and Tendulkar over Pollock, but otherwise, my ATG XI has remained pretty much the same. Also kyear, any particular reason why you have Marshall ahead of Warne in the batting order?

Jack Hobbs
Herbert Sutcliffe
Don Bradman*
Graeme Pollock
Viv Richards
Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist+
Shane Warne
Malcolm Marshall
Muttiah Muralitharan
Glenn McGrath

For reference, heres what my second XI would be:

Len Hutton
Sunil Gavaskar
George Headley
Wally Hammond
Sachin Tendulkar
Jacques Kallis
Kumar Sangakkara+
Imran Khan*
Dennis Lillee
Sydney Barnes
Clarrie Grimmett

Sanga's probably the most controversial choice here, but his batting has just been so good that he makes it. Imran could probably swap with Marshall... but for now this is what I think works best.

 

[Prince EWS]

I never saw Marshall bat but both his Test and First Class batting records definitely indicate a better batsman than Warne.

 

[fredfertang]

I never saw Marshall bat but both his Test and First Class batting records definitely indicate a better batsman than Warne.

When he was needed, or in the mood, Maco could look like a front line batsman ie plenty of time to see the ball and good foot movement, in a way that for me Warne never did

 

[Prince EWS]

When he was needed, or in the mood, Maco could look like a front line batsman ie plenty of time to see the ball and good foot movement, in a way that for me Warne never did

Thanks for that. With ten First Class hundreds that doesn't surprise me at all. I've never really read much about his batting but he's someone I've just always considered to be not far off an allrounder.

 

[Days of Grace]

Yeah, can be a good no. 8.

I'm sticking with the team in my sig., even though I've copped criticism for having Gilchrist at no. 6. The five frontline bowling options with Warne and Murali in tandem are too good to be discounted. That, and everyone bar Murali can hold a bat in the lower order.

 

[Jager]

Sanga's probably the most controversial choice here, but his batting has just been so good that he makes it. Imran could probably swap with Marshall... but for now this is what I think works best.

So you'd be willing to put someone who is likely to be less proficient (read: likely to miss chances that better keepers would have taken) behind the stumps in search of some extra runs - for me that just doesn't make sense.

 

[watson]

So you'd be willing to put someone who is likely to be less proficient (read: likely to miss chances that better keepers would have taken) behind the stumps in search of some extra runs - for me that just doesn't make sense.

Yes, it would be a shame if the keeper missed a stumping off someone like Bradman when he was only on 2.

(good to see you back Jager)

 

[Coronis]

So you'd be willing to put someone who is likely to be less proficient (read: likely to miss chances that better keepers would have taken) behind the stumps in search of some extra runs - for me that just doesn't make sense.

I was under the impression that Sanga was actually a very proficient keeper in his earlier days, though I'm not too sure. I know he's been at the very least a reliable keeper for SL in one dayers, but, his performance in the second test didn't seem too good. I was also wondering about the keeping quality of Andy Flower, I know he was an excellent batsmen but I've heard very little about his actual keeping..

 

[smash84]

Oh...Mick Jager is back

 

[Flametree]

Yeah, Sangakkara gets credit for a phenomenal average since giving up the gloves... but as we saw a couple of weeks ago, when he now takes the gloves, he isn't nearly good enough to be in an all-time side as a keeper. Maybe in his first incarnation as keeper he was good enough, I don't really recall (but I guess he kept to Murali, so he can't have been too bad). But if that's the case, in picking him you're picking a good keeper who averaged 40 with the bat, or a bad keeper who averages 55+.

I'd rather have a great keeper who averaged 32 with the bat back when that was only about 5 or 6 points below a very respectable average for a top order batsman.

And if you want an average keeper who averaged 50 with the bat, there's always Andy Flower.

 

[SJS]

It is interesting to see great cricketers indulging in the same fun excercise of selecting all time sides. Let me try to put here those I can locate with the year of selection to understand which was the pool the selector was looking at.

Selector # 1 : Alec Bedser

Legendary England Medium pacer, ranked as the third in a great line of purveyors of medium pace. The first two being SF Barnes and Maurice Tate. Bedser, of course was an England Chairman of Selectors for a very long time​

Year of Selection : 1981
Pool : Post WW II (1945 to 1981)

The Team : Aussie Post WW II

1. Arthur Morris
2. Bobby Simpson
3. Don Bradman (captain)
4. Lindsay Hassett
5. Greg Chappell
6. Neil Harvey
7. Keith Miller
8. Richie Benaud
9. Don Tallon (keeper)
10. Ray Lindwall
11. Dennis Lillee

12th Man : Alan Davidson

Bedser explains some of his selections thus :

Bradman as captain because "no one could equal his intuition and technical knowledge - the best captain of all time and the best number three of all time"

Openers : "After a lot of thought I make Bobby Simpson to partner Morris before Sid Barnes (because of ) his specialist slip fielding and ability to support Benaud with his leg breaks"

Greg Chappell : "by far the best modern Australian batsman and the only one who could have made the 1948 Australian side to England"

On dropping Davidson : " his (Miller's) inclusion blocks the way for Davidson, whose fielding was magical; but he was not a Miller as a batsman.
​

The Team : ENGLAND Post WW II (1945-1981)

1. Len Hutton
2. Geoff Boycott
3. Peter May (captain)
4. Dennis Compton
5. Ken Barrington
6. Ian Botham
7. Godfrey Evans
8. Tony Lock
9. Jim Laker
10. Freddie Trueman
11. Frank Tyson

12th Man Drek Randall

Tyson and Trueman : "Tyson at his peak and Trueman just edge out Statham. . . . Trueman for his ability to swing the ball and his close catching"

Laker and Lock are automatic choices but the latter must "adopt his later style of slow left-arm bowling - that is slower and with flight"
Botham edges out Bailey as the all rounder due to his being the more attacking bowler, his extra pace and his aggressive batting to follow the yorkshire openers, May and the superb Compton and the dour Barrington.

May is his choice as captain over Hutton due to his being "less affected by responsibility and a little more understanding of man management"​

The Team : India - 1946 - 1981

1. Merchant
2. Gavaskar
3. Hazare
4. Pataudi Jr (captain)
5. Vishwanath
6. Mankad
7. Engineer (keeper)
8. Abid Ali
9. Kapil Dev
10. Prasanna
11. Chandrashekhar

12th Man : Borde

On the choice of Abid Ali : To balance the attack and because "Kapil deserves new ball support . . .His (Abid's) accuracy, an ability to continue with his cutters after the new ball shine disappeared and his all round competence.

On which spinners to choose : Unfortunately, one of the famed Indian spinners has to go. Bhagwat Chandrashekhar, a potential match winner, is essential. and Erapalli Prasanna is, by general consent, the best off-spinner. Sadly no place for Bishen Badi or Subhash Gupte. Mankad , the pivot of the side, is the third spinner.

Openers ; pick themselves

Middle order : Hazare's professionalism and cool head in a crisis . . . I rate tiny Gunduppa Viswanath worthy of a place

Captain : Tiger Pataudi . . . has all the requirements for captain . . . also a brilliant and widely experienced batsman

Keeper : Engineer . . . despite an inclination to be flashy, has strong claims to be keeper . . .also a dangerous batsman​

to be continued

 

[Dan]

Yeah, it's definitely a trade-off. Typically the best pure wicketkeepers couldn't hold a bat compared to the best batsman-wicketkeepers.

Generally speaking, the two options are Knott (32 with the bat, incredible with the gloves) and Gilchrist (47 and very, very good). 15 runs an innings is a big difference, so in my mind Gilchrist jumps ahead because the trade is better - you gain a lot in the batting department for a small drop off in wicketkeeping. I know Jager is the opposite (and still can't convert me).

Thinking of an XI now, I'm leaning towards this:

1. Jack Hobbs
2. Len Hutton
3. Don Bradman
4. Viv Richards
5. Walter Hammond
6. Gary Sobers
7. Adam Gilchrist +
8. Imran Khan *
9. Malcolm Marshall
10. Harold Larwood
11. Bill O'Reilly


Second XI
1. Barry Richards
2. Sunil Gavaskar
3. George Headley
4. Graeme Pollock
5. Sachin Tendulkar
6. Jacques Kallis
7. Keith Miller
8. Godfrey Evans
9. Hedley Verity
10. Dennis Lillee
11. Glenn McGrath


Yes, I rate Harold Larwood. Let's not get into this argument again; I will not be swayed by reason and logic

 

[watson]

That second team would beat your first team I reckon.

 

[Howe_zat]

Bedser's selection of Botham just 4 years after his debut says something about those four years - though probably more about when in 1981 the selection was made

 

[The Sean]

Following SJS's lead, here is an equivalent from the former England batsman Tom Graveney, who picked his teams in 1982 at the end of his book of personal Top Tens. I would love it if he produced an updated edition, as it would be fascinating to see how his top 10s and his all-star teams have changed in the past 30 years.

Australia post-1945 (excluding Bradman, who he placed in the pre-war team):

Bob Simpson
Bill Lawry
Lindsay Hassett
Neil Harvey
Greg Chappell
Keith Miller
Rod Marsh
Richie Benaud (captain)
Alan Davidson
Ray Lindwall
Dennis Lillee

Doug Walters (12th Man)

The depth of batting in this team (Lindwall at 10!), without compromising on the bowling, is a massive strength. Graveney said he had three major decisions:

Hassett or Chapelli at number 3 - eventually swayed by Hassett's career FC average of 58.24.

Grout or Marsh behind the stumps - eventually deciding that Lillee and Marsh go together like bacon and eggs (he rated both men ahead of Tallon).

Davidson or Thommo as the last fast bowler - eventually deciding that he wanted the variety that Davo's left-armers would bring to the attack.

Others to follow...

 

[The Sean]

Graveney's England post-1945:

Len Hutton (captain)
Geoff Boycott
Peter May
Denis Compton
Colin Cowdrey
Ian Botham
Godfrey Evans
Alec Bedser
Jim Laker
Fred Trueman
Derek Underwood

Tony Lock (12th Man)

Graveney was unequivocal in his belief that Peter May was the greatest of all post-war England batsman, though it's interesting to note that Ken Barrington couldn't get a gig ahead of Colin Cowdrey, who averaged nearly 15 points less in the same era.

Graveney said his biggest choice here was between Trueman, Statham and Tyson - he considered playing two of them but finally plumped for the pace and penetration of Fiery (despite actually ranking Statham one place higher than Trueman in his list of the top 10 greatest fast bowlers!) to share the new ball with Bedser.

 

[Coronis]

Yeah, it's definitely a trade-off. Typically the best pure wicketkeepers couldn't hold a bat compared to the best batsman-wicketkeepers.

Generally speaking, the two options are Knott (32 with the bat, incredible with the gloves) and Gilchrist (47 and very, very good). 15 runs an innings is a big difference, so in my mind Gilchrist jumps ahead because the trade is better - you gain a lot in the batting department for a small drop off in wicketkeeping. I know Jager is the opposite (and still can't convert me).

Thinking of an XI now, I'm leaning towards this:

1. Jack Hobbs
2. Len Hutton
3. Don Bradman
4. Viv Richards
5. Walter Hammond
6. Gary Sobers
7. Adam Gilchrist +
8. Imran Khan *
9. Malcolm Marshall
10. Harold Larwood
11. Bill O'Reilly


Second XI
1. Barry Richards
2. Sunil Gavaskar
3. George Headley
4. Graeme Pollock
5. Sachin Tendulkar
6. Jacques Kallis
7. Keith Miller
8. Godfrey Evans
9. Hedley Verity
10. Dennis Lillee
11. Glenn McGrath


Yes, I rate Harold Larwood. Let's not get into this argument again; I will not be swayed by reason and logic

I shall have to do a major study on wicketkeepers in the near future. Also, very interesting to see that your top two teams don't contain either Warne or Murali. Thats a very rare occurence. Would definitely have either of them over Verity.

 

[The Sean]

Graveney's West Indies post-1945:

Frank Worrell (captain)
Conrad Hunte
Vivian Richards
Everton Weekes
Clive Lloyd
Garry Sobers
Clyde Walcott
Joel Garner
Michael Holding
Wes Hall
Lance Gibbs

Rohan Kanhai (12th Man)

Graveney says that this might be the strongest of all the teams he selected, noting the quality of the line-up along with the stunning array of talent he had to leave out. His main issue was with the 'keeper and he had drafted Deryck Murray into the side, but in the end decided to bring in an extra bowler and let Big Clyde go behind the stumps.

 

[Cabinet96]

First XI

1. Jack Hobbs
2. Len Hutton
3. Don Bradman
4. Walter Hammond
5. Sachin Tendulkar
6. Gary Sobers
7. Adam Gilchrist
8. Imran Khan
9. Malcolm Marshall
10. Glenn McGrath
11. Muttiah Muralitharan

Second XI

1. Herbert Sutcliffe
2. Sunil Gavaskar
3. George Headley
4. Graeme Pollock
5. Viv Richards
6. Jacques Kallis
7. Keith Miller
8. Allan Knot
9. Shane Warne
10. Curtly Ambrose
11. Bill O'Reilly

 

[Dan]

I shall have to do a major study on wicketkeepers in the near future. Also, very interesting to see that your top two teams don't contain either Warne or Murali. Thats a very rare occurence. Would definitely have either of them over Verity.

I've never been a Warne fan TBH. It was very tight with Murali, but I've always rated Verity far higher than most others. One of the idiosyncrasies in my XIs, and one I suspect won't be repeated very often.