Greatest ODI batsman of all time

[Migara]

We've discussed this 100 times. Warne and Murali's record are very close when you consider the non-minnow ODI sides the faced. Then in those discussions you said Murali's longevity means he is better. He did play for longer but Warne played for more than long enough.

I don't want to pull out the stats once more. In ODis, Murali has better stats and performance in every aspect. and don't mention WC finals because that will make de Silva the best ODI player of all time.

 

[Jono]

Nah deadset **** off. This is a thread about best ODI batsman ever, Warne and Murali do not belong here. Get this **** to the Warne vs. Murali or ODI All-Time XI threads.

 

[Ikki]

I don't want to pull out the stats once more. In ODis, Murali has better stats and performance in every aspect. and don't mention WC finals because that will make de Silva the best ODI player of all time.

See, same arguments. Murali doesn't have better stats in every aspect. I remember we looked at the non-minnow stats before; Murali was slightly better in average, and Warne slightly better in SR; Murali better in ER. But Warne's batting more than made up the differential in the run-saving aspect.

And just like the other time: de Silva doesn't have the stats to be any such thing; as your argument is a strawman. No one is saying Warne is better solely because of his WC performances. Warne's overall record is more than comparable with Murali's, and his WC performances in finals shows how clutch he was in important matches/moments.

You don't want to pick Warne, don't.

 

[Ikki]

Best point made in this entire thread. Bradman first picked in my ODI side.

He probably would have been the best ODI batsman too.

 

[Jono]

He definitely would have been, surely.

Where would you bat him? Open?

 

[stephen]

Interesting that in all three of the linked articles on the previous page, Gilchrist's name comes up ahead of Anwar's.

I think people are seriously underestimating just how good Gilchrist was as an ODI opener. If he's behind other ODI openers it isn't by much.

 

[ankitj]

And I love how Dhoni comes at 2nd place in that S Rajesh's article. Wouldn't put him there as of now, but definitely put him in top 5.

 

[Satyanash89]

I love Anwar but Gilchrist was definitely better than him imo... and he's a perfect fit in an AT XI coz a destructive opener is invaluable and would be a perfect foil for Tendulkar

 

[Daemon]

so i didn't watch the innings, but was that an all time great innings by MSD today

One of the best I've seen, but I don't know enough about ODI history to say it's an ATG one. In terms of match situation and pressure it's definitely a truly great innings though.

 

[harsh.ag]

I would always pick Sachin and Lara to open. Lara would be the perfect foil for Sachin, more so than Gilchrist, who I place next on the pecking order. Lara is a better version of Ganguly in the legendary Sachin-Ganguly opening pair.

So my batting order would look something like this: Sachin | Lara | Viv | Ponting | Dhoni +| Bevan | Klusener

Gilchrist, Dean Jones, Kapil Dev, Miandad the next on the list.

 

[SJS]

The reason why Dhoni rates high with so many people is clearly his 50 plus average in odi's. an article yesterday points out that he is a clear 7 points ahead of Sachin's and ten ahead of Ponting. It goes on to call him the best limited over batsman in the world.

No one seems to be able to argue, cogently and objectively, however, as to why Dhoni should not be batting higher up the order. He made his highest odi score of 183 batting at number three. At that time we had Sachin's, Dravid, Ganguly and often times Laxman, in the odi side. This was the reason/excuse for him not being able to bat higher. These four reasons have fallen by the wayside over time but Dhoni has refused to move up the order even with himself as the one to decide tha batting order. Why?

India is in serious crisis, whether we want to admit or not. The choice of three fabulous openers to choose from is gone. The top order is exposed. We would give anything, like it or not, to have a Dravid of ten years ago at one drop, forget an Indian equivalent of Ponting or Lara. Why is captain courageous shy of taking the responsibility?

Ask yourselves that question. Dhoni is an exceptional cricketer without doubt but he is no fool. He, more than any one else, is aware of his limitations and knows how to maximise what he can do. So lets give the man credit where it is due - and that's a lot anyway. But stop crediting him with attributes and accolades that would show up his limitations than make him the God we wish our favourite cricketers to become. He is an exceptional cricketer as I just said but he is no Ponting and no Lara. Those two worthies never had to bat lower down the order for the larger part of their careers but if they had to as, in the case of someone like Mike Hussey in modern times or arguably the greatest West Indian batsman of all times in Tests (Sobers) , they would have adjusted. Then with their talents they would have scored the big runs that they were capable of, and remained not out more often and averaged higher than they did batting in the top order.

Gilchrist opened in 259 of the 279 innings he batted in. There is no sense in comparing his average with Dhoni's. Dhoni knows his limitations even if his diehard fans don't which is why you won't see him opening except in the rarest of rare cases. . . And thank God for that.

 

[Contra]

So basically your saying that Dhoni doesn't move up the order because he has "limitations" and won't score as much?

For a start the top order isn't "exposed", one bad game doesn't make all our top order bats crap. Sehwag shouldn't be there (he's totally out of sync at the moment), but we have other openers coming in like Rahane to replace the likes of Sehwag, Gambhir for all his weaknesses is still pretty awesome in ODI's. Kohli and Yuvraj and still two of the top limited overs bats in the world.

The simple reason as to why Dhoni doesn't bat up the order is because he doesn't need to, he's 31 and it would be pretty dumb for him to start batting up the order and take away the opportunity from younger players to build their careers.

 

[Red]

The reason why Dhoni rates high with so many people is clearly his 50 plus average in odi's. an article yesterday points out that he is a clear 7 points ahead of Sachin's and ten ahead of Ponting. It goes on to call him the best limited over batsman in the world.

No one seems to be able to argue, cogently and objectively, however, as to why Dhoni should not be batting higher up the order. He made his highest odi score of 183 batting at number three. At that time we had Sachin's, Dravid, Ganguly and often times Laxman, in the odi side. This was the reason/excuse for him not being able to bat higher. These four reasons have fallen by the wayside over time but Dhoni has refused to move up the order even with himself as the one to decide tha batting order. Why?

India is in serious crisis, whether we want to admit or not. The choice of three fabulous openers to choose from is gone. The top order is exposed. We would give anything, like it or not, to have a Dravid of ten years ago at one drop, forget an Indian equivalent of Ponting or Lara. Why is captain courageous shy of taking the responsibility?

Ask yourselves that question. Dhoni is an exceptional cricketer without doubt but he is no fool. He, more than any one else, is aware of his limitations and knows how to maximise what he can do. So lets give the man credit where it is due - and that's a lot anyway. But stop crediting him with attributes and accolades that would show up his limitations than make him the God we wish our favourite cricketers to become. He is an exceptional cricketer as I just said but he is no Ponting and no Lara. Those two worthies never had to bat lower down the order for the larger part of their careers but if they had to as, in the case of someone like Mike Hussey in modern times or arguably the greatest West Indian batsman of all times in Tests (Sobers) , they would have adjusted. Then with their talents they would have scored the big runs that they were capable of, and remained not out more often and averaged higher than they did batting in the top order.

Gilchrist opened in 259 of the 279 innings he batted in. There is no sense in comparing his average with Dhoni's. Dhoni knows his limitations even if his diehard fans don't which is why you won't see him opening except in the rarest of rare cases. . . And thank God for that.

 

[hendrix]

Noone's saying he's a good opener though.

He's a bloody brilliant middle order batsman, and is definitely in contention to be in ATG ODI teams.

I have both Dhoni and Gilchrist in my team. Neither of them are opening.

 

[Daemon]

Dhoni's done very well batting anywhere from 1-7 in the order. What makes you say he doesn't want to bat himself higher due to limitations? If anything he'd have more opportunities to score 100s if he pushed himself up the order. He didn't do so majority of the time because none of Sachin, Sehwag, Kohli and Gambhir are better batsmen lower down the order. Yuvraj and Dhoni's spots at #5 and #6 are interchangeable and there have been plenty of occasions when he's batted at 5, the most famous case being the WC Final.

I don't think many rate him ahead of Sachin as an ODI bat anyways ftr.


At the moment I think he should bat himself ahead of Raina.

 

[hendrix]

He didn't do so majority of the time because none of Sachin, Sehwag, Kohli and Gambhir are better batsmen lower down the order. Yuvraj and Dhoni's spots at #5 and #6 are interchangeable and there have been plenty of occasions when he's batted at 5, the most famous case being the WC Final.

This.

It was less about his limitations than the limitations of those in his team.

I'm still unsure about Anwar/Lara/Ponting, but I definitely want Dhoni in the middle order.

1. Tendulkar
2. Anwar/Lara
3. Watson
4. Viv
5. Dhoni
6. Bevan
7. Gilchrist (w)
8. Garner
9. Wasim
10. Bond
11. Murali

Alternatively:
1. Tendulkar
2. Anwar/Lara
3. Ponting/Amla
4. Viv
5. Dhoni (w)
6. Bevan
7. Flintoff
8. Garner
9. Wasim
10. Bond
11. Murali

 

[smash84]

The reason why Dhoni rates high with so many people is clearly his 50 plus average in odi's. an article yesterday points out that he is a clear 7 points ahead of Sachin's and ten ahead of Ponting. It goes on to call him the best limited over batsman in the world.

No one seems to be able to argue, cogently and objectively, however, as to why Dhoni should not be batting higher up the order. He made his highest odi score of 183 batting at number three. At that time we had Sachin's, Dravid, Ganguly and often times Laxman, in the odi side. This was the reason/excuse for him not being able to bat higher. These four reasons have fallen by the wayside over time but Dhoni has refused to move up the order even with himself as the one to decide tha batting order. Why?

India is in serious crisis, whether we want to admit or not. The choice of three fabulous openers to choose from is gone. The top order is exposed. We would give anything, like it or not, to have a Dravid of ten years ago at one drop, forget an Indian equivalent of Ponting or Lara. Why is captain courageous shy of taking the responsibility?

Ask yourselves that question. Dhoni is an exceptional cricketer without doubt but he is no fool. He, more than any one else, is aware of his limitations and knows how to maximise what he can do. So lets give the man credit where it is due - and that's a lot anyway. But stop crediting him with attributes and accolades that would show up his limitations than make him the God we wish our favourite cricketers to become. He is an exceptional cricketer as I just said but he is no Ponting and no Lara. Those two worthies never had to bat lower down the order for the larger part of their careers but if they had to as, in the case of someone like Mike Hussey in modern times or arguably the greatest West Indian batsman of all times in Tests (Sobers) , they would have adjusted. Then with their talents they would have scored the big runs that they were capable of, and remained not out more often and averaged higher than they did batting in the top order.

Gilchrist opened in 259 of the 279 innings he batted in. There is no sense in comparing his average with Dhoni's. Dhoni knows his limitations even if his diehard fans don't which is why you won't see him opening except in the rarest of rare cases. . . And thank God for that.

A tad harsh IMO

I really don't rate Dhoni as a test player because I don't think he would last too long but in the LO format. He is arguably the finest ever finisher (FTR he is just behind Bevan for mine).

Just because Gilchrist was more versatile doesn't mean that he is a better batsman than Dhoni. In LO format Dhoni performs pretty much every time and of course he plays to his strengths for which he should be given credit for (not take it away).

 

[NUFAN]

This.

It was less about his limitations than the limitations of those in his team.

I'm still unsure about Anwar/Lara/Ponting, but I definitely want Dhoni in the middle order.

1. Tendulkar
2. Anwar/Lara
3. Watson
4. Viv
5. Dhoni
6. Bevan
7. Gilchrist (w)
8. Garner
9. Wasim
10. Bond
11. Murali

Alternatively:
1. Tendulkar
2. Anwar/Lara
3. Ponting/Amla
4. Viv
5. Dhoni (w)
6. Bevan
7. Flintoff
8. Garner
9. Wasim
10. Bond
11. Murali

One of the big problems with that first team in particular is the lack of ability in the field apart from Viv. Dhoni in the field, Sachin was never anything special, Murali was weak, Bevan while quick wasn't great, Watson just mopes around etc etc.

Also Garner shouldn't be at above Wasim in either team.

 

[smash84]

Murali was actually a pretty good fielder (before he had a shoulder injury). He was lightning quick in ground fielding

 

[hendrix]

One of the big problems with that first team in particular is the lack of ability in the field apart from Viv. Dhoni in the field, Sachin was never anything special, Murali was weak, Bevan while quick wasn't great, Watson just mopes around etc etc.

Also Garner shouldn't be at above Wasim in either team.

This is true.

It might be an extra reason for picking Lara ahead of Anwar.

Alternatively, Hashim Amla could get in there opening with Tendulkar.