The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Dan]

Well Mike Denness played for Scotland so he probably counts if you're looking for a cheaty associate option.

Steve Waugh played for Ireland

 

[Prince EWS]

Steve Waugh played for Ireland

Haha, only as an overseas player though. Mike Denness was actually Scottish.

 

[bagapath]

a XI made up of great players who played less that 40 tests

barry richards
wg grace (c)
graeme pollock
george headley
dudley nourse
jack gregory
jock cameron (wk)
bill o'reilly
syd barnes
shane bond
clarrie grimmett

 

[Flametree]

My all-nation xi :

1. Hobbs
2. Gavaskar
3. Bradman
4. Sobers
5. Tikolo
6. Flower A *
7. Imran Khan
8. Shakib al Hasan
9. Hadlee
10. Donald
11. Muralitharan

 

[Flametree]

A side of players who played at least one test, but no more than 10.

1. Richards B
2. Dempster S
3. Russell C
4. Jackson A
5. Donnelly M
6. Irvine L *
7. Procter M
8. Amar Singh
9. Appleyard R
10. Cowie J
11. Iverson J

A lot of old-timers in the eleven, which is I guess to be expected.

Modern players who make the grade will very quickly get into double-figures of matches. A more modern (80s+) era side :

Arnott, Love, Law, Hodge, Ervine S, de Bruyn, Ashraf Ali *, Dodemaide, Kartik, Gray, Daniel

 

[Jager]

Does anyone have any insight into Lee Irvine's keeping ability? His Cricinfo profile spectacularly unspectacular

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

Does anyone have any insight into Lee Irvine's keeping ability? His Cricinfo profile spectacularly unspectacular

I read somewhere that he was known more for his dashing batting than his wicket keeping abilities. In the only test series against Australia, he played mainly as batsman and Gamsy and Lindsay kept wicket above him in those matches.

 

[fredfertang]

He played for Essex for two seasons and never kept wicket for them

 

[Jager]

So more of a part-time wicketkeeper then. Shame actually, I was hoping he was a freak with the gloves and I'd just overlooked him all this time.

 

[Cabinet96]

1. Jack Hobbs
2. Barry Richards
3. Don Bradman
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Gary Sobers
6. Andy Flower +
7. Shakib al Hasan
8. Imran Khan
9. Richard Hadlee
10. Bart King
11. Muttiah Muralitharan

Could swap Richards for Gavaskar and Pollock for Tendulkar.

 

[Red]

I think these are the best players from each test nation (Kapil=Tendulkar) in fairly normal positions.


1. Jack Hobbs (Eng)

3. Don Bradman (Aus)
4. Graham Pollock (SA)
5. Garry Sobers (WI)
6. Andy Flower (Zim)
7. Kapil Dev (Ind)
8. Imran Khan (Pak)
9. Al Hasan (Ban)
10. Richard Hadlee (NZ)
11. Muralitharan (SL)

 

[Jager]

Where does Swann rate out of all the English spinners? Rankings would be great

 

[Red]

Off the cuff comment, and I don't know that much about him, but strikes me as a bit of a minnow basher after a cursory look at his stats.

Has been ordinary against Aust and SA, which, in my opinion, would be the big matches for an Englishman.

 

[Prince EWS]

Has been ordinary against Aust and SA, which, in my opinion, would be the big matches for an Englishman.

Not as a spinner though - in terms of stats anyway - because you'll be playing so many matches in Australia and South Africa. Swann's job there is mainly to keep the pressure on and allow his captain to rotate the quicks, then bowl his team home in the final innings if the conditions present themselves. He's done that very well as a whole really, with match-winning performances against Aus/SA in these matches:

2nd Test: South Africa v England at Durban, Dec 26-30, 2009 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
2nd Test: Australia v England at Adelaide, Dec 3-7, 2010 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
5th Test: England v Australia at The Oval, Aug 20-23, 2009 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
2nd Test: England v Australia at Lord's, Jul 16-20, 2009 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Overall I do think it's fair to say he's done his job against those sides on the more difficult wickets for him to bowl on, taking advantage when his role changes. He hasn't been amazing, but I certainly wouldn't think it fair to say he's been "ordinary".

That said, I definitely wouldn't put him ahead of Laker, Briggs, Underwood or Verity. I'd put him in the next tier down with Rhodes and Lock.

 

[Red]

Not as a spinner though - in terms of stats anyway - because you'll be playing so many matches in Australia and South Africa. Swann's job there is mainly to keep the pressure on and allow his captain to rotate the quicks, then bowl his team home in the final innings if the conditions present themselves. He's done that very well as a whole really, with match-winning performances against Aus/SA in these matches:

That said, I definitely wouldn't put him ahead of Laker, Briggs, Underwood or Verity. I'd put him in the next tier down with Rhodes and Lock.

He's been slightly worse stats wise at home against Aust and SA than he has away. Which is bizarre, but both home and away he's been fairly poor against both teams.

Agree with your last paragraph.

 

[Howe_zat]

Add on Wardle, Blythe and Peel, and Swann just about makes the top 10.

 

[Malleeboy]

Is number 8 a specialist position when picking a ATG team

Having read some of the various all time threads, it appears that the concensus seems to be pick the four best bowlers regardless of the team balance.(eg number of spinners in Eng ATG). In normal teams there is generally an expectation that the no 8 be a specialist bowler that can bat somewhat but does a team with so many great batsman need a no 8 that can bat.

Maybe we can nominate the list of best no 8 for ATG teams regardless of what other choices would be made.

For instance, who is Australia's greatest.

Given Miller is almost always placed at 6 and given reduced bowling duties, that for me means that Davidson would be Australia's best choice at number 8. a line up of say

6 Miller
7 Gilchrist
8 Davidson

Would be aggresive, entertaining and be able to flog wearied attacks exhausted from having worked through the top order.

For the Windies, Malcolm Marshall comes to my mind as their best number 8.
For NZ, Vettori

So who would be the best number 8 (specailist bowler who can bat a bit) in the each countries line up (regardless of whether they made the actual ATG team)?

 

[Days of Grace]

For New Zealand, maybe Hadlee, since Cairns would probably be at no.7. Depends if you think Vettori is better than Hadlee. Since Dan's recent downturn in form, I call it even.

 

[Dan]

Where does Swann rate out of all the English spinners? Rankings would be great

If I were to rank English spinners, it would look something like this:

1. Verity
2. Laker
3. Underwood
4. Briggs
5. Wardle
6. Peel
7. Blythe
8. Rhodes
9. Swann
10. Lock
...
99. Ashley Giles

 

[kyear2]

Ray Lindwall, Shane Warne or Allan Davidson could do the job for Australia
Shaun Polock or Mike Procter for South Africa
Hedley Verity would also be capable of doing the job for England