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English ATG Team- Open Voting
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
watson
Banned
I was always taught that a score of 4/240-60 during the course of a days play is an even result between bat and ball. But I have no recollection where that piece of 'conventional wisdom' comes from. Sounds reasonable though. And of course I picked 255 because that is the coincidental score that South Africa made yesterday.
What would you say is even result at the end of a days play?
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watson
Banned
It feels as though we are stuck in an infinite loop with no way out.......
Suffice to say, an average 4 man attack would struggle against a quality batting team. And an average 5 man attack would fair little better because the 5th bowler would get smashed just like the other 4 bowlers.
On the other hand, a quality 4 man attack would go OK against a quality batting team. A quality 5 man attack would of course be better, but not if they have to defend smaller totals most of the time because their batting line-up equates to 4-out, all-out.
Which brings us back to square one
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watson
Banned
The Windies did not lose a series (29 of them) between 1980 and 1995. Sure they 'failed at times', but by and large their 3-4 quality pacemen were sufficient during those 15 years.
Wisden - The Australians in the West Indies, 1994-95
kyear2
International Coach
Just to take one example. Marshall never lost a test series and in his career as an opening bowler lost a total of four matches. And in his entire career of matches lost (9), he still averaged 27. Failure didn't occur too often.
Interesting though to hear Jager talking about overestimating abilities of players.
Interesting though to hear Jager talking about overestimating abilities of players.
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Jager
International Debutant
Once again you're misreading my point - I'm not saying that they weren't highly successful, all I am saying is that when we talk about the bowling combinations we draft for example, we seem to talk about our sides as if they would tear through any side for ~150 runs every time.
watson
Banned
Bit more than 150 runs. I said 4/255 and NUFAN reckoned 4/234.
We like our wild assumptions to be very precise.
Red
The normal awards that everyone else has
I think this is an interesting conversation actually.
Great teams are generally great because they have great bowlers. The two most powerful teams I've seen were the Australians under Waugh and the WIs under Lloyd/Richards.
The WIs had the pace quartet (as we all know)- Something along the lines of Marshall, Holding, Garner and Roberts. Later Ambrose and Walsh. But the four front liners, with a minimal amount of input from Viv and Harper as offies.
The Australians had McGrath, Gillespie, Lee/Bichel/Kaspa and Warne. With minimal bowling from the Waughs.
Essentially, those teams won consistently with four front-liners. But also, they were generally beating teams with batting lineups considerably weaker than their own.
And most importantly, they'd often roll teams in under a day, which meant the bowlers might only have to bowl 15-25 overs each.
In this ATG situation, I think the fifth bowler is pretty important. Even with the best bowlers bowling to the best batsman you'd expect the batting team to bat for over a day most innings. That also means having a genuine 5th option means your rotations are fresh. Someone like Miller or Botham, coming in for a spell of 8 or 10 overs could make a massive difference.
I honestly think that having a genuine fifth option means that you're more likely to be chasing 300, rather than 400-500, simply because you can attack all the time (rather than having Quiney and Hussey bowling!)
Great teams are generally great because they have great bowlers. The two most powerful teams I've seen were the Australians under Waugh and the WIs under Lloyd/Richards.
The WIs had the pace quartet (as we all know)- Something along the lines of Marshall, Holding, Garner and Roberts. Later Ambrose and Walsh. But the four front liners, with a minimal amount of input from Viv and Harper as offies.
The Australians had McGrath, Gillespie, Lee/Bichel/Kaspa and Warne. With minimal bowling from the Waughs.
Essentially, those teams won consistently with four front-liners. But also, they were generally beating teams with batting lineups considerably weaker than their own.
And most importantly, they'd often roll teams in under a day, which meant the bowlers might only have to bowl 15-25 overs each.
In this ATG situation, I think the fifth bowler is pretty important. Even with the best bowlers bowling to the best batsman you'd expect the batting team to bat for over a day most innings. That also means having a genuine 5th option means your rotations are fresh. Someone like Miller or Botham, coming in for a spell of 8 or 10 overs could make a massive difference.
I honestly think that having a genuine fifth option means that you're more likely to be chasing 300, rather than 400-500, simply because you can attack all the time (rather than having Quiney and Hussey bowling!)
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NUFAN
Y no Afghanistan flag
So what's the point of having a number 6 who is going to end up often on a small score not out if you think its 4-out, all-out on in the case of 6 batsman, 5-out, all-out.It feels as though we are stuck in an infinite loop with no way out.......
Suffice to say, an average 4 man attack would struggle against a quality batting team. And an average 5 man attack would fair little better because the 5th bowler would get smashed just like the other 4 bowlers.
On the other hand, a quality 4 man attack would go OK against a quality batting team. A quality 5 man attack would of course be better, but not if they have to defend smaller totals most of the time because their batting line-up equates to 4-out, all-out.
Which brings us back to square one
Basically I disagree once again. If a 5 man attack would of course be better that's exactly what I'm going for - I want a better attack so a strong fifth bowling option is brilliant, and seriously they can still bat, these high class all rounders..
All I said was whenever I see a score at 3/234 I think the batting team is on top, when I see it 5/234 the bowlers are on top (unless its a tough batting wicket) 4/234 to me always seems like an even contest.
AndyZaltzHair
Hall of Fame Member
If a batting super power is locked in an ATG side for example Hammond, Sobers or Kallis who can also be used as fifth option then I think having another genuine bowling option and sacrificing batting in the process is a bit luxury. English team got Hammond who can be used as 5th option. If Botham is included in the team, he should be playing as pure frontline bowler if we all agree that he can bear the burden of that and batting at 7.
As for Australia ATG side there is no such batting super power locked in the team who can be used as 5th option which also somewhat justifies inclusion of Miller who will concentrate at batting and come at short bursts when bowling.
As for Australia ATG side there is no such batting super power locked in the team who can be used as 5th option which also somewhat justifies inclusion of Miller who will concentrate at batting and come at short bursts when bowling.
watson
Banned
You have forgotten the context of the discussion..... Bradman is at No.3, and then Gilchrist comes in at No.7 after Miller gets out. Plus Miller is probably a stronger batsman than Botham anyway.So what's the point of having a number 6 who is going to end up often on a small score not out if you think its 4-out, all-out on in the case of 6 batsman, 5-out, all-out.
Basically I disagree once again. If a 5 man attack would of course be better that's exactly what I'm going for - I want a better attack so a strong fifth bowling option is brilliant, and seriously they can still bat, these high class all rounders..
In other words, the balance is far better in an ATG Aussie team compared to the England ATG team. Therefore Miller sits more comfortably in the middle-order than what Botham does.
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NUFAN
Y no Afghanistan flag
I have not forgotten the context of the discussion. The point I questioned was actually in reply to your comment.
Also, Knott's ability to occupy the crease is similar to Gilchrist's - its just that Gilchrist would score more.
For what its worth I agree that the balance of the Australian team is better but considering Barnes, Laker and probably Verity are selected in the England team, Botham is a must and having 5 bowlers against the strongest batting lineups in the world is going to be my modus operandi throughout this process when one of the bowlers can bat at a level similar to Botham/Miller.
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kyear2
International Coach
To save thi steam from having three spinners I will change my vote from Laker and Snow to Laker and Larwood. As I had stated prviously I do believe Verity to be better than Laker, but with Barnes already in the team, a slower spinner who turns the ball the other way would offer greater variety.
