English ATG Team- Open Voting

[watson]

Now that I think about it, I would feel more comfortable if Matt Prior was my no.7 with Beefy at no.6

Also, having Miller at no.6 is fine since you have Bradman at no.3 with an average almost double that of any other alltime-great batsman.

Oh yes, I forgot about Bradman lol

Miller comes as a Bradman-Miller-Gilchrist package, and hence is more readily 'tolerated'.

The England team does not have the luxury of a Bradman or Gilchrist to carry Botham and hence should have been an Australian, Actually, he'd make a fine Australian style cricketer

 

[Jager]

My Miller logic is put him in his natural habitat 5, reduce his bowling duties to a whirlwind four or five overs with the new ball/as first change and the decreased stress on his body would make for a 45+ averaging batsman and a ~20-25 averaging bowler

 

[The Sean]

Tbh, just talking averages and the supposed advantage of Bradman, Hobbs, Hutton, Hammond and Barrington's high averages almost nullify the Bradman effect anyhow.

Yeah, I suppose we should have picked Barnes and Hayden as Australia's openers.

Cricketweb is also one of the very few bodies that selects Barrington in an England All Time XI, despite his average.

 

[kyear2]

That Miller logic to me is just flawed, as Sobers bore a heavier bowling load and responsibility than Miller and even though it probably affected his average a bit, he still managed to average over 57. Miller is just not as great a batsman you believe him to be and certainly not an ATG batsman, and not worthy of batting at 5 in an ATG side.

 

[The Sean]

Oh yes, I forgot about Bradman lol

Miller comes as a Bradman-Miller-Gilchrist package, and hence is more readily 'tolerated'.

The England team does not have the luxury of a Bradman or Gilchrist to carry Botham and hence should have been an Australian, Actually, he'd make a fine Australian style cricketer

Again, Gilchrist was never traditionally part of the "package" - so are you saying that Miller would never have been selected in All Time Australian XIs if not for the existence of Bradman?

The idea that cricketers of the class of Miller and Botham need to be "carried" by the presence of a Bradman or Gilchrist just beggars belief.

 

[watson]

Again, Gilchrist was never traditionally part of the "package" - so are you saying that Miller would never have been selected in All Time Australian XIs if not for the existence of Bradman?

The idea that cricketers of the class of Miller and Botham need to be "carried" by the presence of a Bradman or Gilchrist just beggars belief.

Here are Botham's Series averages. Have a look them and pay particular attention to averages not involving India or New Zealand.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[The Sean]

Here are Botham's Series averages. Have a look them and pay particular attention to averages not involving India or New Zealand.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Thanks, but I'm fully aware of what statsguru says about Ian Botham. And most other cricketers, for that matter.

 

[The Sean]

As an aside - is that the cricket chat equivalent of Godwin's law? Rather than the tipping point being the punctuation of a discussion or debate by referencing Hitler/the Nazis, in this context it is the insertion of a statsguru link into a cricketing discussion.

 

[watson]

As an aside - is that the cricket chat equivalent of Godwin's law? Rather than the tipping point being the punctuation of a discussion or debate by referencing Hitler/the Nazis, in this context it is the insertion of a statsguru link into a cricketing discussion.

No, it's the lack of available time to type entire paragraphs and to extract the poor averages against decent attacks.

Anyway, would it make a difference if I typed entire paragraphs and extracted poor averages against decent attacks rather than let you absorb the information by yourself?

 

[Jager]

Again, Gilchrist was never traditionally part of the "package" - so are you saying that Miller would never have been selected in All Time Australian XIs if not for the existence of Bradman?

The idea that cricketers of the class of Miller and Botham need to be "carried" by the presence of a Bradman or Gilchrist just beggars belief.

Yeah it's just stupid, these men were class batsmen. Can't stand it.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah it's just stupid, these men were class batsmen. Can't stand it.

Class batsmen yes, ATG batsmen or worthy of a place in an A.T. XI top order based purely on their batting, no.

 

[Jager]

I never said it was purely for their batting. It's for a combination of their three skillsets, in Miller's case four with captaincy.

 

[Prince EWS]

Yeah, I suppose we should have picked Barnes and Hayden as Australia's openers.

Cricketweb is also one of the very few bodies that selects Barrington in an England All Time XI, despite his average.

I didn't even pick him, but I tend to think people leave him out for the wrong reasons.

 

[AldoRaine18]

I would like to participate in such a thread that makes an ATG team out of India and Pakistan combined.

 

[Hurricane]

make a thread then mate, I will participate. give this one a couple more days.

 

[Jager]

I would like to participate in such a thread that makes an ATG team out of India and Pakistan combined.

The ATG general discussion thread would be a good place to do that, we've already had a bit of talk about it actually

 

[NUFAN]

I think today was a good illustration why picking a star all rounder like Miller or Botham is invaluable. I know the Aussie attack isn't world class or anything but as seen today against a good batting lineup the extra bowling power from a proven match winner is going to benefit the team more times than not.

Taking 20 Test wickets is always going to be challenging when the top 5 is as brilliant as the ones we are picking. The bowling attacks need as much help as possible.

 

[watson]

I think today was a good illustration why picking a star all rounder like Miller or Botham is invaluable. I know the Aussie attack isn't world class or anything but as seen today against a good batting lineup the extra bowling power from a proven match winner is going to benefit the team more times than not.

Taking 20 Test wickets is always going to be challenging when the top 5 is as brilliant as the ones we are picking. The bowling attacks need as much help as possible.

The West Indies in the 70s-80s-90s knocked over many good batting line-ups with four bowlers and a bloke who rolled his arm over. Hence, it's quality, not quantity.

But yes, it's still very nice to have five proper bowlers in your side if you can fit them in.

 

[NUFAN]

The West Indies in the 70s-80s-90s knocked over many good batting line-ups with four bowlers and a bloke who rolled his arm over. Hence, it's quality, not quantity.

But yes, it's still very nice to have five proper bowlers in your side if you can fit them in.

Yes good batting lineups, but not the 5 best batsman from a countries history.

Again I'll use this South African lineup as an example, WI wouldn't have bowled to many batting lineups that much better, but still this lineup has some weaknesses that you wouldn't see in the top countries ATG sides..

 

[watson]

Yes good batting lineups, but not the 5 best batsman from a countries history.

Again I'll use this South African lineup as an example, WI wouldn't have bowled to many batting lineups that much better, but still this lineup has some weaknesses that you wouldn't see in the top countries ATG sides..

I guess it's impossible to know, but I doubt very much that the current South African side would be 2/255 at stumps on the first day of a series against Marshall, Holding, Garner, and Harper.

How those same bowlers would go against B.Richards-Smith-Kallis-Pollock-Nourse-Faulkner is also very difficult to estimate. But I don't think they would be belted around the park. I would say the honours would be even at the end of day one. Perhaps 4/255, with South Africa very glad that Procter, Waite, and S.Pollock are still to follow in the batting order.

Which goes back to the original point. If our England ATG team were 4/255 on day 1 then Botham would be under enormous pressure to protect Knott, Verity and not much else. Consequently he would find it difficult to be play his natural attacking game, which would only make things worse for him.