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English ATG Team- Open Voting

Prince EWS

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
See I'm a bit torn here. I'm definitely going to include Grace in my eleven, but obviously England's opening candidates are a lot better than their middle order ones, so I'd prefer to include him in the middle order if I could. I'm just not sure if that's feasible based on where Grace actually batted. I know he opened in all bar one of his Test innings but I'm not actually picking him on the basis of his Test career so I'm more interested in learning if he spent much time in the middle order in county cricket, which is something I don't really know.
 
watson

watson

Banned
BoyBrumby said:
Hutton had his issues against pace. Famously dropped during the invincibles' tour for (perceived) windiness under fire. Unquestionably a great, but Sutcliffe's temperament was the classical "none shall pass" opener's mindset.

Herb's also the only player other than Bradman to end his career with a 60+ average after having played 50 tests.
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If you compare the two respective lists of bowlers that Hobbs, Sutcliffe, and Hutton had to face then I rate Hutton's task a more difficult one;

HowSTAT! Player Dismissal Analysis

HowSTAT! Player Dismissal Analysis

HowSTAT! Player Dismissal Analysis


In other words Lindwall, Miller, Johnston, Cowie, Mahmood, McCormick, Davidson, and Martindale seem a more daunting list of fast bowlers than Gregory, McDonald, Cotter, Wall, and Kelleway.

What I do find curious is the fact that Hutton got out so often to Rowan (11 dismissals and more than Lindwall or Miller) and Johnson (4 dismissals)- both spinners. Did Hutton have a weakness against off spin I wonder?
 
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stumpski

stumpski

International Captain
Prince EWS said:
See I'm a bit torn here. I'm definitely going to include Grace in my eleven, but obviously England's opening candidates are a lot better than their middle order ones, so I'd prefer to include him in the middle order if I could. I'm just not sure if that's feasible based on where Grace actually batted. I know he opened in all bar one of his Test innings but I'm not actually picking him on the basis of his Test career so I'm more interested in learning if he spent much time in the middle order in county cricket, which is something I don't really know.
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WG's first-class stats are so immense (870 matches played) that to analyse them in any detail, beyond what CricketArchive does for you, can take all day. It seems though, from picking out a few random scorecards, that by his early 20s he was opening the innings, and stayed there pretty much for the rest of his career. In those days there was none of this "is he any good against pace?" You just put your best batsman in first. Incidentally CA also lists 18 relatives, which might itself be a record.
 
BoyBrumby

BoyBrumby

Englishman
watson said:
If you compare the two respective lists of bowlers that Hobbs, Sutcliffe, and Hutton had to face then I rate Hutton's task a more difficult;

HowSTAT! Player Dismissal Analysis

HowSTAT! Player Dismissal Analysis

HowSTAT! Player Dismissal Analysis


In other words Lindwall, Miller, Johnston, Cowie, Mahmood, McCormick, Davidson, and Martindale seem a more daunting list of fast bowlers than Gregory, McDonald, Cotter, Wall, and Kelleway.

What I do find curious is the fact that Hutton got out so often to Rowan (11 dismissals and more than Lindwall or Miller) and Johnson (4 dismissals)- both spinners. Did Hutton have a weakness against off spin I wonder?
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You've got Hutton up twice (first and third links) & Hobbs not at all, ftr.

Interesting you mention McDonald tho; wouldn't he have been playing CC by the time Herb debuted in tests?

I suppose one could check how he got on against the likes of McDonald, Larwood and Voce in the FC arena to see how he fared against pace generally, but yeah, on the face of it Hutton did face the stiffer challenge in tests, pace-wise.
 
watson

watson

Banned
BoyBrumby said:
You've got Hutton up twice (first and third links) & Hobbs not at all, ftr.

Interesting you mention McDonald tho; wouldn't he have been playing CC by the time Herb debuted in tests?

I suppose one could check how he got on against the likes of McDonald, Larwood and Voce in the FC arena to see how he fared against pace generally, but yeah, on the face of it Hutton did face the stiffer challenge in tests, pace-wise.
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But Hobbs faced McDonald - and too his credit was dismissed only once by him. I was comparing all three openers.
 
stumpski

stumpski

International Captain
Tantalisingly, Hobbs and Hutton never played in the same match - they both played in 1934, but Hobbs (who was 51) only played a few matches that year, and although Hutton appeared against Surrey at Bradford in July, he'd gone by then.
 
watson

watson

Banned
Prince EWS said:
See I'm a bit torn here. I'm definitely going to include Grace in my eleven, but obviously England's opening candidates are a lot better than their middle order ones, so I'd prefer to include him in the middle order if I could. I'm just not sure if that's feasible based on where Grace actually batted. I know he opened in all bar one of his Test innings but I'm not actually picking him on the basis of his Test career so I'm more interested in learning if he spent much time in the middle order in county cricket, which is something I don't really know.
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As a general principle I think it safe to say that 1,2 or 3 batsman can bat at 4, 5, or 6 with relative ease. But the reverse is not true.

If WG Grace floats your boat, then sure, why not bat him in the middle order?
 
Prince EWS

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
watson said:
As a general principle I think it safe to say that 1,2 or 3 batsman can bat at 4, 5, or 6 with relative ease. But the reverse is not true.

If WG Grace floats your boat, then sure, why not bat him in the middle order?
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Well if I had to list England's best six ever batsmen in order of how highly I rated them, I'd probably roll with Grace, Hobbs, Hammond, Hutton, Sutcliffe, Compton. And while I agree that it's easier for openers to slide down the order a bit than the other way around, picking four openers and a #3 as my 1-5 in the batting lineup would take the piss slightly.
 
Prince EWS

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Grace and Hobbs, anyway.

I'll stick Hutton in at 3 and not bother about Sutcliffe.

Reality of the matter is, though, Grace won't win this vote, so when the middle order votes comes around I'll probably vote for him again.
 
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Prince EWS

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
On the Sutcliffe v Hutton debate, there is definitely a statistical backing for the idea that Sutcliffe benefited from weaker attacks a little more of the two. When I standardised their averages Hutton's went from 56.67 to 53.94 (95%) while Sutcliffe's went from 60.73 to 56.11 (92%) but certainly neither played in the toughest era to be a batsman by any stretch of the imagination.

Longevity is why I put Hutton ahead though; he got the equivalent of almost 13 years worth of Tests in, while Sutcliffe didn't make 10. Unpopular reasoning for picking someone so I won't go into that again too much. :p
 
The Sean

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Prince EWS said:
On the Sutcliffe v Hutton debate, there is definitely a statistical backing for the idea that Sutcliffe benefited from weaker attacks a little more of the two. When I standardised their averages Hutton's went from 56.67 to 53.94 (95%) while Sutcliffe's went from 60.73 to 56.11 (92%) but certainly neither played in the toughest era to be a batsman by any stretch of the imagination.

Longevity is why I put Hutton ahead though; he got the equivalent of almost 13 years worth of Tests in, while Sutcliffe didn't make 10. Unpopular reasoning for picking someone so I won't go into that again too much. :p
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What did Hobbs change to?
 
Hurricane

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Grace as a genuine vote and 1 to Boycott just so he gets a vote (but think Hobbs is obv better).
 
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