Clash of the titans, Dhoni vs Bevan

[doesitmatter]

In an AT ODI XI Javed Miandad has to be there IMO..He was a master at pacing the innings, running between wickets and first great finisher..great great ODI batsman..

 

[SJS]

I agree they are different players but if one had to make a call on which was better I would choose Bevan over Dhoni for the following reasons.

1. I prefer Bevan to resuscitate a cause that seemed lost or nearly lost with quite a long way to go over Dhoni more consistently.

2. Secondly, I prefer Bevan to do this more successfully against top class bowling attacks particularly if their strong suit was the faster stuff.

3. Thirdly, I feel more comfortable with Bevan's more even paced run chases while Dhoni invariably allows the run rate to drop away before launching an all out attack in the latter part. Bevan's methods are surer while Dhoni bets on being their till the end and making up. We have seen that often this does not happen.

The only scenarios where Dhoni scores over Bevan is where very quick runs are required in a relatively short period of time but then that is not where these two are to be placed st the top we have so many others who have done great service in that role - Klusener and Razzaq just two off the cuff.

 

[smash84]

3. Thirdly, I feel more comfortable with Bevan's more even paced run chases while Dhoni invariably allows the run rate to drop away before launching an all out attack in the latter part. Bevan's methods are surer while Dhoni bets on being their till the end and making up. We have seen that often this does not happen.

The only scenarios where Dhoni scores over Bevan is where very quick runs are required in a relatively short period of time but then that is not where these two are to be placed st the top we have so many others who have done great service in that role - Klusener and Razzaq just two off the cuff.

tbf Dhoni is successful much more often than he fails so his methods work well for him.

Secondly, Razzaq and Klusener haven't delivered nowhere near as consistently as Dhoni. Dhoni has lasted much longer than Klusener. Razzaq was always very hot and cold, not consistent at all.

 

[SJS]

tbf Dhoni is successful much more often than he fails so his methods work well for him.

Secondly, Razzaq and Klusener haven't delivered nowhere near as consistently as Dhoni. Dhoni has lasted much longer than Klusener. Razzaq was always very hot and cold, not consistent at all.

Hi :o)

I was not comparing Klusener and Razzaq with Dhoni. There is no comparison. I was just trying to say that if a few quick runs are required many teams have players in the lower order who are meant to do the job. These two amongst many have been used for this. I just meant that this PLUS point of Dhoni is not the most pertinent one in the discussion between Bevan and him.

In my humble opinion the rest of what I said holds but it is only an opinion :o) If every one was to agree on one I guess this thread wouldn't have been started - no ? :o)

PS And of course Dhoni succeeds more often than he fails. We are acknowledging that he is one of the best finishers in the history of the limited overs game that is the only reason for this thread in the first place since that position was so far unarguably held by Bevan and now Dhoni is a strong contender.

 

[smash84]

Hi :o)

I was not comparing Klusener and Razzaq with Dhoni. There is no comparison. I was just trying to say that if a few quick runs are required many teams have players in the lower order who are meant to do the job. These two amongst many have been used for this. I just meant that this PLUS point of Dhoni is not the most pertinent one in the discussion between Bevan and him.

In my humble opinion the rest of what I said holds but it is only an opinion :o) If every one was to agree on one I guess this thread wouldn't have been started - no ? :o)

PS And of course Dhoni succeeds more often than he fails. We are acknowledging that he is one of the best finishers in the history of the limited overs game that is the only reason for this thread in the first place since that position was so far unarguably held by Bevan and now Dhoni is a strong contender.

hi and welcome back SJS,

fair enough.....so we aren't really disagreeing

 

[uvelocity]

 

[Red]

I don't think I've ever seen someone put Shane Bond in an ODI all-time eleven. He actually took more wickets than Garner despite playing sixteen less games. He dominated an incredibly stong Australian team almost every time he played them as well.

Garner had an economy rate of 3 rpo. That's unreal. A bowling attack of Garners would concede 150 runs per innings. In his era 220 was probably an average team score. That's why he's my first picked ODI quick. Economy rate is vital in ODIs, as pressure build up is what makes batting teams crumble for really low scores.

Bond is immensely talented, no doubt. I think that if his body held up he could have possibly been the greatest quick ever. But I don't like injury prone quicks, and he seemed to get injured about every 5th over he bowled.

 

[SJS]

I find Dhoni's evolution as a batsman is one of the most interesting phenomenon in modern day cricket because it is not about development or growth in his technique, stroke play etc. This is a marvelous story of a man who decided to play a particular role in a team which he was suddenly asked to lead. From a swash-buckling and extremely un-orthodox hitter of the cricket ball, he became a man who would take on the responsibility of the second half of a side that had star after star following each other in the top half. He has done a great job of it although the his methods have been . . . well . . . his own. I suspect this has to do with his realisation about his technical difficulties as well as his steely resolve to shore up the second half of the Indian line up and try and finish the jobs if and when the top order failed to do it.

Before we discuss this further there are some very interesting statistics. Since we are talking here, basically, of the legacy as one of the great finishers in the one day game, these stats only refer to those innings where India batted second.

Dhoni went into bat for India in 91 such innings (where they batted second) of which just over a third - 34 to be exact - were played by him before he became the skipper. So I have divided these 91 into three parts - 34 as just keeper, then the next 34 and then the rest (23) of the innings till date. The results are very revealing. Lets take them one by one.

Batting average :
Dhoni's batting average for this period has been very good although varying

• As keeper : 52.6
• As captain1 : 57.1
• As captain 2 : 41.7

Clearly the captaincy and the additional responsibility this remarkable self-made cricketer took on made him do even better than his already superb average as keeper. I suggest the drop in the third stage (April 2011 onwards) corresponds with a dip in the teams fortunes as well as his own form. It is difficult to put an exact co-relation to these things without trying to sound to clever by half. I think we need to wait for longer to see if his dip is more lasting.

Scoring Rate :

• As Keeper : 95
• Captain 1 : 78
• Captain 2 : 73

It is easy to remember Dhoni's strike rate as being in the 80's because that is where his career rate lies. However, the drop in his strike rate is significant. This is a clear result of the change in style of batting by Dhoni since he became captain and it has continued to move in that direction since that series against South Africa in 2007. We will come to it later.

Boundaries - through and over
Here is the percentage of runs scored by Dhoni in 4's and 6's over the three periods. This is amazing :-

[B]PERIOD    	Inns	Runs	4s	6s	% in boundaries[/B]
					
As keeper	34	1157	94	32	43.6
					
As captain 1	34	1257	92	13	33.4
					
As captain 2	23	626	38	8	29.4

It is very interesting to see how Dhoni stopped hitting sixes almost immediately after he became skipper. The drop in boundaries is not significant. Clearly he told himself that he wanted to play more percentage cricket and getting out caught in the deep may not look good in his new role as skipper. He was hitting a six every 130 runs or so.The drop in his run rate reflects this and a bit more circumspect start.

The last two years (as captain2) show a drop in his boundaries as well. Again resulting in a further drop in his strike rate although one could argue that he is making up a bit by taking more singles and twos. Whatever that maybe the fact remains that less than 30 runs in boundaries would put a question mark on any one's ability to be the catalyst for accelerating run rates. One would like to suggest that Dhoni has taken on the role more of seeing the innings through in the company of the talented youngsters like Raina etc rather than win it off his own bat - at least as far as run rate is concerned. This is not to run down Dhoni's remarkable contribution to Indian ODI wins but to put it in context and to understand the new Dhoni. In fact, this is no more a new Dhoni. It is the Indian fan and the electronic media that would like to keep thinking of Dhoni as the murderer of bowling attacks which he started as.

He is not that and has not been for quite some time and that is perfectly all right as long for the role he is playing is crucial.

To be continued . . .

 

[smash84]

wow.....awesome post

 

[vic_orthdox]

I wonder what India's win/loss record is like; I'd imagine that it would have been continuously improving over that time, even though Dhoni has been getting slower in a chase.

 

[uvelocity]

I just wonder whether India's top order has declined, Dhoni is coming in sooner, with more to do, hence taking it slower and steadier.

 

[Dan]

Sjs, wag.

 

[Shri]

Kohli hasa surely had an effect here. He finished a lot of games off without Dhoni really having to do anything. I am not sure what I am trying to say but to put it vaguely I think Kohli has a hand in Dhoni's recent stats. More importantly, one more reason to say this: Kohli WAC.

 

[uvelocity]

I don't know the ****, but he has a point. Kohli WAC

 

[ankitj]

Dhoni really should bat in middle order rather than late lower order. It will be good in many ways. Dhoni likes to start slow and then explode, the explode part may not come if he's coming in with only 8 or so overs left. By coming early he's not "risking" anything. He most of the times will be there till the end as we have seen several time in past. he can start with 5 off 20 and then go on to finish at 80 off 65. In the process, he will provide much stability and will not have to take the chase to the last over (just like in the world cup final). And then the team has guys life Yuvraj and Raina to do the hitting from word go in the lower order.

I don't know what it is about him as a captain that he wants to act as the shield lower down the order. We're never going to win 100% of the matches and he doesn't have to feel responsible for every defeat. Should bat where he can do best.

 

[SJS]

. . . .

One would like to suggest that Dhoni has taken on the role more of seeing the innings through in the company of the talented youngsters like Raina etc rather than win it off his own bat - at least as far as run rate is concerned. This is not to run down Dhoni's remarkable contribution to Indian ODI wins but to put it in context and to understand the new Dhoni. In fact, this is no more a new Dhoni. It is the Indian fan and the electronic media that would like to keep thinking of Dhoni as the murderer of bowling attacks which he started as.

He is not that and has not been for quite some time and that is perfectly all right as long for the role he is playing is crucial.

To be continued . . .

So. Dhoni has slowed down after becoming the captain, his strike rate has come down, and his sixes have dried up while his batting average has improved - but that's not all . . .

It is generally felt that Dhoni takes far too long to get into fourth gear thereby bringing down the run rate before launching into an all out attack towards the end. Clearly a risk if Dhoni was to fall before he makes up for the loss of momentum. Lets see how far this is true.

Since we have already established that he changed his batting tempo after becoming captain, I am using stats only for games/innings from the period after he became the skipper. Of course we continue to use only innings where India batted second and where Dhoni came in to bat . . .

Takes to long to get into fifth gear

Here are Dhoni's stats sorted by size of innings. Ideally one should break the longer innings into the slow phase and the final onslaught but that is too much work so this will have to do :o(

[B]Runs 	St Rt[/B]

10 and below	50
11 to 25	55
26 to 40	72
41 plus      	85

That needs no comments. If one could break up all the innings into their below 10, 11-25 etc components, this difference would be more stark with the last bit being in three figures I am sure . So the fact that Dhoni is really starting slow and hoping to make up. Normally for a batsman in the upper middle order, this would have been a perfectly legitimate tactic. Someone like, say, M Hussey would be expected to often come and be the backbone of the innings from a modest start and build it to slowly increase the tempo with a more clear and less risky road map. The difference with Dhoni is that he bats in the lower middle order most of the time and, therefore, this can backfire leaving too little time to do the job, and, often times, too little manpower with credentials to make a fist of it.

Lets look at it further . . .

When we talk of people like Bevan and Dhoni we are really discussing their ability to bring the team from a modest situation to victory or close enough to its doorsteps to make it a cert. lets see if this holds for MSD.

Winning is all that matters

During his captaincy, India batted second 67 times when he had to bat and here are the results with Dhoni's runs and strike rate.

	[B]         M	Runs	S Rt[/B]
Wins/Tie	33	1216	81
Losses      	24	667	68

Overall      	67	1883	76

Again the figures are clear. There appears to be a co-relation between Dhoni's strike rate and our winning and losing in a chase. Add that to the previous figure and it is clear that Dhoni's methods are risky whether the risk is worth taking or not is another discussion. We will come to that.

There is, however, another very interesting stat in 'Dhoni's chase-record' viz-a-viz India's winning or losing. Here it is . . .

Dhoni has NEVER been at the crease when India has failed in chasing a target successfully. He gets out before the end. He has a very large number of not outs to his credit - which is not surprising if a batsman of his caliber is going to bat at 6 and 7 in the order - yet every one of those not out innings has been in a winning effort. Even in very close fights in heroic chases, Dhoni has not been on the crease in the end. Here are the stats . . .

[B]Dismissal	WIN/TIE	LOSS
[/B]
Not Dismissed	20	0
Dismissed	13	24

This is an astounding figure for a man who is a finisher par excellence. One wonders if this is a mere statistical oddity . . .

To be continued . . .

 

[SJS]

Dhoni really should bat in middle order rather than late lower order. It will be good in many ways. Dhoni likes to start slow and then explode, the explode part may not come if he's coming in with only 8 or so overs left. By coming early he's not "risking" anything. He most of the times will be there till the end as we have seen several time in past. he can start with 5 off 20 and then go on to finish at 80 off 65. In the process, he will provide much stability and will not have to take the chase to the last over (just like in the world cup final). And then the team has guys life Yuvraj and Raina to do the hitting from word go in the lower order.

I don't know what it is about him as a captain that he wants to act as the shield lower down the order. We're never going to win 100% of the matches and he doesn't have to feel responsible for every defeat. Should bat where he can do best.

Absolutely right. Dhoni needs to bat at number three or four but never below that. Stroke players like Raina and Yuvraj should bat below him

 

[hang on]

one parameter that could possibly be used in this debate is who faced better bowling attacks. i have seen it argued that it was bevan, but is that really the case? perhaps one of the more statistically proficient on here can calculate both players' avearge batting ratings since these do, to an extent, factor in the strength of opposition bowling and other factors.

 

[smash84]

one parameter that could possibly be used in this debate is who faced better bowling attacks. i have seen it argued that it was bevan, but is that really the case? perhaps one of the more statistically proficient on here can calculate both players' avearge batting ratings since these do, to an extent, factor in the strength of opposition bowling and other factors.

I think without going into stats I could easily name a fair few bowlers who were top class and Bevan had to face them

 

[SJS]

[B]Dismissal	WIN/TIE	LOSS
[/B]
Not Dismissed	20	0
Dismissed	13	24

This is an astounding figure for a man who is a finisher par excellence. One wonders if this is a mere statistical oddity . . .

To be continued . . .

One can go into more statistics, particularly with respect to batting first to see Dhoni's role as a builder of challenge/setter of challenging targets but I suggest for the question at hand we have enough to state with minor reservations that

1. Dhoni has changed his batting tactics since taking over captaincy and taken on a more sedate role with an emphasis on seeing things through rather than blasting attacks into oblivion.

2. Consequently, his sixes have dried up, the run rate has dropped, particularly in the first half to two thirds of his innings.

3. His record shows that if he stays at the crease in the end, India invariably wins in a chase. This might be interpreted by some as not wanting to stay till the end if the cause seems hopeless/lost. This is supported by his massively reduced sixes and yet many dismissals while trying to hit sixes.

4. There is no doubt, however, that he has played the role of a finisher with great merit but is it possible that India is not getting the best out of this incredible man.

I think the answer to the last question is yes. And the reasons are as follows.

- Dhoni's new batting avatar - post his elevation to captaincy - is ideal for the one day format for someone batting higher up in the batting order. If Sachin had not taken on the role of opener (thank God) I can visualise him batting like this through an Indian innings at number three (or four) for his entire career and I would like to believe that Sachin would have been played a different role than the swashbuckler the opening slot made him in odi's. I would like to believe that Sachin would have been there at the end of many more famous Indian wins if he had batted lower down but that did not happen and what happened is glorious history as well. But we digress . . .

He should bat at three (preferably) but no lower than four

So Dhoni's current tactics are best for someone batting at number three a la Mike Hussey. Even Bevan has 86 innings at numbers 4 and five against 87 at number 6. Bevan, Dhoni batted lower largely because of the wealth of talent India had at the top with Sehwag, Sachin, Dravid, Ganguly and even Laxman fighting for the top five spots besides youngsters like Yuvraj. Yet, every time Dhoni has batted higher up he has produced better results as can be seen below . . .

Here is Dhoni's record at positions where he has batted for 185 of his 188 odi innings

[B]Batting Position	 Inns	 50s	 100s	 Runs	 Avg	I/50	I/100[/B]

At nos 3 and 4   	34	15	3	1903	76	2	11.0
At no 5      	46	9	3	1873	55	5	15.0
At nos 6 and 7   	103	21	1	2983	42	5	103.0