Clash of the titans, Dhoni vs Bevan

[Ikki]

why is it ironic? given that their records in general, as well as in the wc, are inferior to tendulkar's?

Because the discussion he is referring to was about WC finals records and WC records in general, before Tendulkar had won it.

 

[hang on]

Because the discussion he is referring to was about WC finals records and WC records in general, before Tendulkar had won it.

but, apart from finals performances per se, tendulkar's world cup record is quite a bit superior to both that of ponting's or gilchrist's. u don't end up top scoring in 2 and being the second highest scorer in another, otherwise.

 

[Ikki]

but, apart from finals performances per se, tendulkar's world cup record is quite a bit superior to both that of ponting's or gilchrist's. u don't end up top scoring in 2 and being the second highest scorer in another, otherwise.

That's the contention, though; finals records. Not necessarily group match innings against often very weak sides.

Regardless, I rate Tendulkar ahead of them, which is why it is ironic because he thinks I don't. He'd have no problem with it if it meant I rated the Australians inferior. We've had this discussion several times; I recall many years ago where I probably gave the nod ahead to Gilchrist. And even as steadfast as I was and how good I thought Gilchrist was, the debate, and my own research gave me more appreciation for Tendulkar. And I've said for a while now that in ODI batting it's Bevan, Viv, Tendulkar in one group with everybody else in another.

 

[Migara]

That's the contention, though; finals records. Not necessarily group match innings against often very weak sides.

Regardless, I rate Tendulkar ahead of them, which is why it is ironic because he thinks I don't. He'd have no problem with it if it meant I rated the Australians inferior. We've had this discussion several times; I recall many years ago where I probably gave the nod ahead to Gilchrist. And even as steadfast as I was and how good I thought Gilchrist was, the debate, and my own research gave me more appreciation for Tendulkar. And I've said for a while now that in ODI batting it's Bevan, Viv, Tendulkar in one group with everybody else in another.

There's one imposter in that group. Who cannot play the short ball, and was batting at snail paced compared to other two.

 

[Red]

My thought process in selecting an ATG One Day Team (if anyone cares!)

I reckon Tendulkar is basically the best all-round one-day batsman ever, so he is my first selected in my all-time XI. He is the rock that opens and can bat sensibly but accelerate heavily as necessary

Next consideration is who he will open with, and obviously Gilchrist is considered here. Ideally my other opener will be a left hander, but I consider Greenidge strongly. However, I take Gilchrist as an opener/keeper, as I think he can be incredibly destructive, perhaps more than anyone other than Viv.

Viv goes at three, no questions. Could tear a match apart in a matter of overs. Great fieldsman, which is important.

Number four and five could be filled by plenty of excellent batsmen. I will consider Dhoni seriously in addition to Gilchrist at some point, but at the moment I take Ponting and Lara. Middle order L/R combo, both capable of being brutally destructive against high quality attacks. Both fielders of the highest calibre.

I take AB DeVilliers at 6 simply because I love him. Extraordinary fielder and high quality bat. Having Richards, Ponting, Lara and AB in my team as fieldsmen is an important part of my selection thoughts. Symonds considered strongly and unlucky to miss out. I remember the Australian teams that had Ponting, Clarke, Hogg and Symonds, and the WIs who had Richards, Lloyd, Logie and Harper in the field, and how much pressure that placed on the batting team by drying singles up.

I don't bother with a "finisher". I'd much rather Lara in my team than Bevan.

I take two all-rounders at 7 and 8, both of who are also elite bowlers in Imran and Kapil. This gives my team flexibility. Kapil was a great ODI batsman, and I think he is a better option than Klusener as both a batsman and bowler. Wasim is one I'd like to include, but just misses out.

Warne I take because of his competitiveness, but would be equally happy with Murali.

Garner and McGrath as quicks. Opposition could quite possibly be three for nothing after the first ten overs from those two miserly pricks. I rate economical bowling very highly in ODIs.

 

[honestbharani]

Pretty awesome side.. My thought process would be slightly different though...


I rate Sachin as the best ODI bat too but not by that much over someone like Viv. So Sachin obviously gets to be numero uno in my team. For his opening partner, I m choosing someone who I felt was gifted enough to have EASILY been the best ODI bat in history but had lost his midas touch in shuffling up and down the order.. A guy who averages 40+ opening in more than a reasonable number of games in the 90s when it was rare to see openers averaging 40+.. Brian Lara..


A top 3 of Sachin, Lara and Viv is what dreams are made of.. And it is what makes up the top 3 of my dream ODI XI.. Bevan at 4 because I think the pace of his batting is best suited for that slot and he is more than well equipped to handle a tricky first or a second inning position... I think Dhoni is or will be the best #5 in ODIs and he gets in there for that alone. At 6, I would take a very underrated batsman of the modern times in Mike Hussey.. I would have Andrew Symonds at 7, Shaun Pollock at 8, Wasim at 9, Warne at 10 and Ambrose at 11.

 

[Arachnodouche]

You can't just shoe in batsmen into positions they've never filled for vast portions of their career. Their productivity, at least in part, has to be attributed to the slot they've successfully occupied, and the general match situations they've encountered over a large enough sample of games. That is one of my pet gripes about choosing all time sides, because though we'd all love to have our favorite batsmen in there, there are times when the order feels a bit ungainly.

Monk's side would have Lara and AB at 5 and 6 respectively, and it's hard to not feel that batsmen of that caliber would be wasted coming so low down. (AB, in the current SA side, is already a bit underused even as we speak, because he comes in at 5 (?) when no. 4 is the latest you'd want someone like him to bat at. Though he'll obviously do that once Kallis goes)

 

[Red]

You can't just shoe in batsmen into positions they've never filled for vast portions of their career. Their productivity, at least in part, has to be attributed to the slot they've successfully occupied, and the general match situations they've encountered over a large enough sample of games. That is one of my pet gripes about choosing all time sides, because though we'd all love to have our favorite batsmen in there, there are times when the order feels a bit ungainly.

Monk's side would have Lara and AB at 5 and 6 respectively, and it's hard to not feel that batsmen of that caliber would be wasted coming so low down. (AB, in the current SA side, is already a bit underused even as we speak, because he comes in at 5 (?) when no. 4 is the latest you'd want someone like him to bat at. Though he'll obviously do that once Kallis goes)

But they're not wasted there. Depending on the conditions of the match, they can either consolidate the innings if we lose early wickets, or really accelerate if they come in with only 10-15 overs to go. I'm not sure if your point is I should choose batsmen that have less skill because they need to occupy the lower order. This is the team I'd choose to play a match if all ODI players were available.

FWIW, the batsman who have had most ODI success in batting positions 5-7 (50 innings) are-

Bevan, Hussey, Dhoni, Clarke, E. Morgan, Cronje, Symonds and Chanderpaul.

You could mount a case for Bevan (finisher), Hussey and Dhoni (finishers with more power), but I'd take Lara (best batsman I've ever seen) and DeVilliers (combo of brilliant batting and amazing fielding) over all the others in my side.

 

[CricAddict]

Pretty awesome side.. My thought process would be slightly different though...


I rate Sachin as the best ODI bat too but not by that much over someone like Viv. So Sachin obviously gets to be numero uno in my team. For his opening partner, I m choosing someone who I felt was gifted enough to have EASILY been the best ODI bat in history but had lost his midas touch in shuffling up and down the order.. A guy who averages 40+ opening in more than a reasonable number of games in the 90s when it was rare to see openers averaging 40+.. Brian Lara..


A top 3 of Sachin, Lara and Viv is what dreams are made of.. And it is what makes up the top 3 of my dream ODI XI.. Bevan at 4 because I think the pace of his batting is best suited for that slot and he is more than well equipped to handle a tricky first or a second inning position... I think Dhoni is or will be the best #5 in ODIs and he gets in there for that alone. At 6, I would take a very underrated batsman of the modern times in Mike Hussey.. I would have Andrew Symonds at 7, Shaun Pollock at 8, Wasim at 9, Warne at 10 and Ambrose at 11.

Balance is so important while choosing a one day team. There are too many batsmen in there..I would atleast expect 5 very good bowlers in my ATG team which with Imran, Kapil, Kallis etc can be done without compromising the batting.. Symonds is not good enough to bowl 10 overs for an ATG team.. Monk's team looks perfect to me..

 

[Spark]

Finishers are hugely underrated in ODIs if anything tbh. A Mussey 20-ball rampage in the last ten is worth so much more than the scoreboard suggests, as the extra runs are often the difference between winning and losing.

 

[ankitj]

Agree with spark. It's also a bit of a specialist role. Just any other otherwise decent batsman can't be asked to do the finisher 's job

 

[smash84]

Finishers are hugely underrated in ODIs if anything tbh. A Mussey 20-ball rampage in the last ten is worth so much more than the scoreboard suggests, as the extra runs are often the difference between winning and losing.

Exactly, which is why I rate Dhoni and Bevan so highly.

 

[Dan]

Since we're naming XIs now:

1. Sachin Tendulkar
2. Adam Gilchrist
3. Zaheer Abbas
4. Viv Richards
5. AB de Villiers
6. Michael Bevan
7. Lance Kluesner
8. Wasim Akram
9. Joel Garner
10. Shane Bond
11. Muttiah Muralitharan

12th: Dean Jones

3 very different pace bowlers, an unorthodox off spinner, Klusener as a destructive finisher and fifth bowler, plus Bevan/Richards/Tendulkar to chip in with overs when necessary.

Pains me to leave out Deano, but Abbas was just better IMO. He gets 12th for his services to running between the wickets.

 

[smash84]

I think Amla has a case to be picked over Abbas

 

[Dan]

I think Amla has a case to be picked over Abbas

He is definitely an opener I considered, but I didn't really want ABdV to have to wicketkeep and I didn't pick Dhoni; plus Sachin is undroppable.

I wouldn't bat him at 3 though - IIRC he's opened in almost every ODI innings of his.

 

[Migara]

I think Amla has a case to be picked over Abbas

Abbas has a similar SR and superior average to ABdeV (when adjusted for era of course)

 

[Mike5181]

I don't think I've ever seen someone put Shane Bond in an ODI all-time eleven. He actually took more wickets than Garner despite playing sixteen less games. He dominated an incredibly stong Australian team almost every time he played them as well.

 

[smash84]

good question.....although it can be said about Garner that he was on the field when required. The number of ODIs played in his time was much lesser than in Bond's time.

Edit. But yes if somebody wants to put Bond in their ATXI, I won't mind

 

[Mike5181]

Records against Australia:

Bowling records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[LongHopCassidy]

IMO Dhoni and Bevan are just too different in their approach to compare directly. Nobody would expect Dhoni to rescue a team from 7-74 to win by one wicket, nor would Bevan be predicted to score a World Cup-winning innings at well over a run a ball. A par score to chase down in Bevan's era would be 210-250 while Dhoni's side would consider a score of 280-300 entirely achievable on a standard ODI wicket; helped in no small part by the agricultural fearlessness that comes with routine Twenty20 innings.

A better (or at least easier) debate would be Dhoni vs. Hussey or Symonds, though Dhoni would edge out both as finishers.