Ranking the great fast bowlers

[watson]

Or he bowled what O'Reilly did (minus the googly), depending on the condition of the pitch.

 

[kyear2]

Then we are back to square one trying to determine what he bowled. Quick spinner (ala O'Reilly, Kumble, Verity) or a medium pacer (Mcgrath, Bedser)

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

Here's a very interesting post on Barnes by SJS,

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/1850554-post10.html

 

[Burgey]

Then we are back to square one trying to determine what he bowled. Quick spinner (ala O'Reilly, Kumble, Verity) or a medium pacer (Mcgrath, Bedser)

FMD McGrath's been retired 5 years and people are categorising him as a medium pacer?

 

[kyear2]

Apologies, Fast-medium.

 

[ankitj]

The inclusion of Tendulkar over Hammond in ATG teams irritates me.

Care to explain.

 

[hang on]

Was doing some research on line and from cricket books to see who historians, commentators, writers and former players name in their All Time Teams and including our own team that we did earlier this year and the cricinfo effort the players selected the most for the fast bowler positions were Marshall, Syd Barnes and Lillee with Warne being the unopposed choice for the spinner.
The rest of the team is pretty predictable with the usual suspects. The entire compilation XI
Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton
Don Bradman
Viv Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Syd Barnes
Dennis Lillee

The unanimous selections were Hobbs, Bradman, Sobers and Warne. One vote behind was Tendulkar and Marshall.

think that warne and tendulkar polled 3rd and 4th behind bradman and sobers. hobbs was behind them.

ESPNcricinfo all-time World XI: Voting trends | All-time XIs | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[hang on]

The inclusion of Tendulkar over Hammond in ATG teams irritates me.

would have tendulkar in the team in a flash. what irritates me is the inclusion of warne over murali in all time teams.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Then we are back to square one trying to determine what he bowled. Quick spinner (ala O'Reilly, Kumble, Verity) or a medium pacer (Mcgrath, Bedser)

Must've been medium pace (as in 110-125kph medium, not medium-fast as people tend to be twisting it to mean these days) cutters and swingers imo

 

[watson]

Then we are back to square one trying to determine what he bowled. Quick spinner (ala O'Reilly, Kumble, Verity) or a medium pacer (Mcgrath, Bedser)

Bernard Hollowood in conversation with Albert Hollowood (1970);

“Oh yes, he could ‘em all, but he got his wickets with fast leg-breaks. Marvelous, absolutely marvellous, he was. Fast leg-breaks and always on a length.” Others, Barnes included, have claimed that he bowled every known ball except the googly – swingers, off breaks, top spinners, the lot. But undoubtably his chef d’oeuvre was the leg break. He took a long run, a bounding springy run, and as his arm came over in a perfect action, mid on and mid off could hear the snap of his long fingers as they rolled and squeezed the ball into its revolutionary parabola. There has been no one like him. O’Reilly could bend them from leg, but not with Barnes’s consistency or devil. Douglas Wright could bowl fastish leg breaks, but not on the length that destroys and goes on destroying.
(The Picador Book of Cricket, page 37-38)

Incidently, Douglas Wright was a right-arm medium/leg-break bowler.

So, in the main, Barnes was the English version of Bill O'Reilly, although Barnes could bowl quicker when he wanted to. But apparently, he didn't want to most of the time according to the above eye-witness account. His his 'chef d’oeuvre' was the 'fast leg-break' - spun using his third finger (unusual), not 'over-the-wrist' like Warne or Benaud.

 

[kyear2]

would have tendulkar in the team in a flash. what irritates me is the inclusion of warne over murali in all time teams.

Why is that?

 

[hang on]

because murali's stats are up there with warne's. i suppose in the same way that hammond's are with tendulkar.

 

[watson]

Here is some footage of DVP Wright bowling 'fast leg breaks' in 1947 to get an idea of what SF Barnes might have been like bowling spin. He comes on at about the 1 min 20 sec mark.

There is also some good footage of Bedser bowling, and a rather loopy bouncer or two from Voce.

THE THIRD TEST - British Pathé

 

[Red]

Care to explain.

Tendulkar is a great. No doubt. However, Hammond was just as good a batsman, imo he was probably slightly better. Hammond could also bowl, and was the greatest fielder of his day.

 

[Red]

would have tendulkar in the team in a flash. what irritates me is the inclusion of warne over murali in all time teams.

A lot of people have a very legitimate reason for not including Murali....

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Tendulkar is a great. No doubt. However, Hammond was just as good a batsman, imo he was probably slightly better. Hammond could also bowl, and was the greatest fielder of his day.

Tbf Tendulkar has sent a few down in his time too.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

A lot of people have a very legitimate reason for not including Murali....

Which is/are?

Tbh, I prefer it when people just admit that they prefer Warne for aesthetic reasons. It's perfectly acceptable justification.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

Here is some footage of DVP Wright bowling 'fast leg breaks' in 1947 to get idea of what SF Barnes might have been like bowling spin. He comes on at about the 1 min 20 sec mark.

There is also some good footage of Bedser bowling, and a rather loopy bouncer or two from Voce.

THE THIRD TEST - British Pathé

Good one; shots of the crowds, journalists pretty interesting footage overall

 

[watson]

Good one; shots of the crowds, journalists pretty interesting footage overall

I actually like the bowling of DVP Wright. This isn't the best footage I've seen, but all I could find at the minute. I think he was a very talented bowler.

 

[kyear2]

because murali's stats are up there with warne's. i suppose in the same way that hammond's are with tendulkar.

Outside of S/L and if one takes out the minnows, Murali's stats are less overwhelming. Additionally Warne was a more than handy lower order batsman and a great slip fielder. Warne also revived leg spin, and it is a trickier disipline to master.
Additionally Hammond is just a shade below Tendulkar as a batsman, both helped boost their stats againts minnows here and there, but Hammond also batted on trickier pitches, Hammond was also a very under rated bowler and one of the greatest slip fielders ever. I personally prefer Chappell because he brought the same skills but performed againts better opposition.
All in all they are all very close and the smallest little things make the difference.
I also belive that in an All Time XI, there needs to.be diversity in terms of countries and eras. Lara, Headley, Hammond or Chappell easily could have made my first team over Sachin, but that.doesn't accurately show the diverse nature and history of the game. I usually place an.empasis on players who won, but it can't be in all instances, plus the slip cordon in the first team is already quite capably manned.