Clash of the titans, Dhoni vs Bevan

[Migara]

First ball was there for a leave outside of stump, and not a troubling bouncer in any case. Dhoni was just being adventurous. I don't know how you could call a short one at Akhtar 's pace a rank short ball. That's he kind of ball that will certainly trouble other Indian batsmen. Third one was again there for leave but Dhoni was being adventurous.

That apart, you can point out instances when Dhoni became victim of bouncer barrage? There aren't many that come to my mind, I might be wing though. He does have a weakness against swinging ball but that is different.

The kind of ball disappeared to orbit when bowled aginst Ponting, de Silva, Inzamam or Tendulkar.

 

[ankitj]

I didn't exactly say that Dhoni is as good as those names against short ball. I have to be crazy to say that. Still, he doesn't have a particularly concerning weakness against short ball as is being assumed by simply extending the fact that India is in general known to have that weakness.

 

[honestbharani]

The kind of ball disappeared to orbit when bowled aginst Ponting, de Silva, Inzamam or Tendulkar.

It disappeared to orbit when it was tried at Dhoni too. And I would love to see the ball from Akhtar that Sachin actually pulled into orbit. IN fact, of the names you gave, only one man has done that.. Punter. And he was the only one who can, IMO.

 

[doesitmatter]

When did bouncer become a "money ball" in ODI's?... atleast not the last 20 years

 

[Migara]

It disappeared to orbit when it was tried at Dhoni too. And I would love to see the ball from Akhtar that Sachin actually pulled into orbit. IN fact, of the names you gave, only one man has done that.. Punter. And he was the only one who can, IMO.

Ponting possibly is the best. But others I am sure you have not seen. Inzy and De Silva, like Viv intimidated fast bowlers not to bowl short at them. Not even Sachin was able to do it. Akthar didn't bowl much to de Silva, but Shoaib's predecessors in Imran and 2Ws exactly knew what happens when they drop short to de Silva.

 

[honestbharani]

Ponting possibly is the best. But others I am sure you have not seen. Inzy and De Silva, like Viv intimidated fast bowlers not to bowl short at them. Not even Sachin was able to do it. Akthar didn't bowl much to de Silva, but Shoaib's predecessors in Imran and 2Ws exactly knew what happens when they drop short to de Silva.

I am not questioning that all 4 were good against the short ball and had good pull shots. But remember De Silva was that good with the pull because a good length ball to most others was a short ball to him and he rocked back and pulled those and built the reputation. At the end of the day, to deal with the bouncer, the question is how good your hook shot, not how good is your pull shot.


Anyways, my real point is, Dhoni may not be as good as those 4 you mentioned against the short ball but he isn't a bunny either and it is hardly as big a weakness for him as it is for some of the other contemporary batsmen.

 

[Inferno]

I am not questioning that all 4 were good against the short ball and had good pull shots. But remember De Silva was that good with the pull because a good length ball to most others was a short ball to him and he rocked back and pulled those and built the reputation. At the end of the day, to deal with the bouncer, the question is how good your hook shot, not how good is your pull shot.


Anyways, my real point is, Dhoni may not be as good as those 4 you mentioned against the short ball but he isn't a bunny either and it is hardly as big a weakness for him as it is for some of the other contemporary batsmen.

The short ball isn't a big weakness for Bevan either. Anybody that says that is being a stereotype that believes in stupid myths based a few limited chances he got in his short test career. He has an average 57 in FC cricket in an era where Australia dominated the cricketing world. You don't do that by being a poor player of the short ball. His problem with the short ball he had in tests seemed more mental than anything else.

I don't remember much of the of ODI's but Dhoni sure didn't comfortably play against any short pitched bowling in England or Australia in the test series. If we are bringing up test performances here those should be brought up too.

 

[Trichromatic]

I don't remember much of the of ODI's but Dhoni sure didn't comfortably play against any short pitched bowling in England or Australia in the test series. If we are bringing up test performances here those should be brought up too.

Are you confusing his batting against swing with his batting against short pitched bowling in England? Most of the time he was easily getting away or hitting fours against short-pitched deliveries in England. Can't say about Australia tour, missed whole series.

 

[Inferno]

Dhoni made his debut almost at the same time as Bevan retired.

Overall S/R during Bevan's tenure (94-04) was 72.44. Australia's own SR during the same period was 78.10. Bevan's was 74 remember.

Overall S/R during Dhoni's tenure (05 - ) is 78. But Dhoni's own is about 89. India's SR during the period is 86, and this is despite them having such amazing hitters like Yuvraj, Raina, Kohli etc and still Dhoni's SR is better than his compatriots.

The issue here is Bevan benefited a lot from the performance of an awesome bowling line up, which almost always ensured Australia did not have a big target to chase down, and also an explosive top order which ensured that almost always when he came out to bat, the required run rate was extremely manageable. In high pressure chases, i.e, when the target was above 275,

Oppn	Target	 RR 	Runs	Balls	BatPos	SR	RPO	
SL	344	 6.88 	41	51	5	80%	 4.82 	
SA	330	 6.60 	3	4	7	75%	 4.50 	N.O
Pak	316	 6.32 	6	9	7	67%	 4.00 	N.O
Ind	316	 6.32 	49	56	4	88%	 5.25 	
SA	311	 6.22 	29	27	6	107%	 6.44 	
Ind	310	 6.33 	65	82	4	79%	 4.76 	
Ind	308	 6.16 	8	14	7	57%	 3.43 	
Ind	304	 6.08 	41	43	7	95%	 5.72 	
Ind	300	 6.00 	6	11	4	55%	 3.27 	
Ind*	225	 6.62 	12	20	6	60%	 3.60 	
Pak	291	 5.82 	5	9	4	56%	 3.33 	
WI	291	 5.82 	31	40	5	78%	 4.65 	
Ind	290	 5.80 	40	43	5	93%	 5.58 	
NZ	287	 5.74 	dnb					
SA	285	 5.70 	103	95	5	108%	 6.51 	
Ind	284	 5.68 	18	28	6	64%	 3.86 	
Eng	283	 5.66 	45	59	6	76%	 4.58 	
Pak	275	 5.50 	61	80	6	76%	 4.58

There is one splendid performance, that 100 against SA but nothing much otherwise to speak about. Also look at the disparity between required rate and Bevan's rate. He barely managed to keep up with the run rate and also gobbled up enough deliveries to put pressure n the remaining batsmen as well.

A) The fact that it was a "managable" target because of good bowlers is exactly why Bevan played at a slow strike rate without taking any risks which could have caused him to get out. The fact that he strikes at 80 in the first innings (which is pretty good for his era) when he doesn't know the target while averaging 52 proves that he can play aggressively when needed.

B) I can't believe how someone would even take this seriously. Obviously the required rate isn't gonna be the same from the beginning of the innings as opposed when Bevan comes out to bat as Australia has aggressive batsmen like Gilchrist, Hayden etc who usually give them an aggressive start in the beginning even if they get out and don't get big scores.


In fact how have we not mentioned the fact that an aggressive batsmen with a high SR is more likely to get out playing a rash shot. Like that stupid helicopter shot Dhoni tires to play. I don't know how many times I have seen him get out trying to play that shot when it was completely unnecessary. I'll bet that puts pressure on the remaining batsmen as well. Seem to remember quite clearly that even Ganguly was criticizing him just a year ago for doing that.

 

[Inferno]

Are you confusing his batting against swing with his batting against short pitched bowling in England? Most of the time he was easily getting away or hitting fours against short-pitched deliveries in England. Can't say about Australia tour, missed whole series.

He got out about all time to swing bowling by mindlessly sticking his bat out and edging it but I don't recall him being flashy against anything short either.

 

[benchmark00]

Dhoni is not good at the short ball, but he's just even worse at the swinging full ball outside off, so there's no need to try and bounce him out.

 

[Trichromatic]

Dhoni is not good at the short ball

Assumption.

 

[ankitj]

About time someone backed up the claim that Dhoni has a weakness against short ball.

 

[Shri]

A) The fact that it was a "managable" target because of good bowlers is exactly why Bevan played at a slow strike rate without taking any risks which could have caused him to get out. The fact that he strikes at 80 in the first innings (which is pretty good for his era) when he doesn't know the target while averaging 52 proves that he can play aggressively when needed.

B) I can't believe how someone would even take this seriously. Obviously the required rate isn't gonna be the same from the beginning of the innings as opposed when Bevan comes out to bat as Australia has aggressive batsmen like Gilchrist, Hayden etc who usually give them an aggressive start in the beginning even if they get out and don't get big scores.


In fact how have we not mentioned the fact that an aggressive batsmen with a high SR is more likely to get out playing a rash shot. Like that stupid helicopter shot Dhoni tires to play. I don't know how many times I have seen him get out trying to play that shot when it was completely unnecessary. I'll bet that puts pressure on the remaining batsmen as well. Seem to remember quite clearly that even Ganguly was criticizing him just a year ago for doing that.

He doesn't get out much trying that particular shot. Maybe 3 times at best in his whole career iirc.

 

[Top_Cat]

No kidding, speaking of notable Bev chases and not mentioning his 78not against the WI at the SCG on New Years Eve, deliberately being economical with the truth or not looking hard enough. Rain-shortened game, OZ 6/38, juice in the deck, doesn't get any more pressurised than that.

 

[uvelocity]

bevan never had a mullet, another plus

 

[Top_Cat]

Did when he was playing for SA, sorry to say.

 

[uvelocity]

knew that was a risky post

 

[Arachnodouche]

There are so many things wrong with Dhoni's technique, it's a testament to the man's temperament he's managed to be as productive as he has been. In some ways , he's seemed more Australian than Indian to me..love to see him face off Bevan over cards.

 

[Migara]

Anyways, my real point is, Dhoni may not be as good as those 4 you mentioned against the short ball but he isn't a bunny either and it is hardly as big a weakness for him as it is for some of the other contemporary batsmen.

My point was that although Dhoni may not be the best against short stuff, but he somehow manages to score, and he has been tested enough times with it. On other hand Bevan was never tested on his achilles heel in ODIs.