Clash of the titans, Dhoni vs Bevan

[popepouri]

Its situational for me but I have mad love for both of them.

To save an innings, Bevan. To finish one off, Dhoni.

 

[Migara]

It will be plain wrong to assume that Dhoni has same sort of troubles with short ball that Raina has. Dhoni is much better against the short stuff.

Dhoni would have fund himself in tangles if likes of Donald, Walsh, Ambrose were bowling short at him. Current bowlers possibly as not as mean as above bowlers. Having said that Bevan had problems against much inferior bowlers than above with the short ball.

 

[Migara]

Obviously not the same Adam Hollioake who Michael Bevan averages 108 against when he features in the game.

Possibly ONLY Adam Hollioke has been bowling at Bevan in all those matches.

 

[marc71178]

Yeah, Adam Hollioke producing chin music against Bevan must have occur ed in the outer-space. Both are weak against short ball, but Dhoni is being tested by it, while Bevan was not. And whenever he was tested in international cricket, Bevan came second best of the bowler.

Utter bull**** - seeing as Holloake played against Bevan 7 times and never got him out how on earth did he come off second best against chin music?

 

[Faizal Khan]

Bevan's not personally perpetuating the dark ages of cricket with an absurd opposition to UDRS.

Game, set, match.

Depends on perspective. UDRS still has a lot of flaws as seen in the recent England series.

Anyway this is irrelevant to the debate which is about batting prowess.

 

[Faizal Khan]

He's skipped a tour but last I checked he was playing ODIs in Aus over the winter and only missed those against England due to a foot injury.

Has stopped playing much since the 200*.

Skipped a tri series with SL, Asia Cup 2010, Aus home series, NZ home series, WI home series, WI away series, SL away series (in chronological order).

 

[Senile Sentry]

good analysis but did you factor in the pitch conditions and bowling attacks that they faced?

I wish we had a way to quantify effect of pitches and bowler quality. If one considers average of top order Aus batsmen, the average SR is 78.10, far better than Bevan's own.

and it would great if someone can do rough analysis of cases of low scoring games when Dhoni and Bevan finished the game.

Can you prescribe a threshold?

Definitely needs era adjustment. I'd wouldn't make judgements based off 5.5rpo+ chases when Dhoni's average target was 250, and Bevan's was 220.

The highest target Bevan had to chase was 138% of the mean score, whereas Dhoni's was 120% of his mean target.


Statistics alone don't prove much anyway; they're far too open to manipulation and sample size issues.

Dhoni made his debut almost at the same time as Bevan retired.

Overall S/R during Bevan's tenure (94-04) was 72.44. Australia's own SR during the same period was 78.10. Bevan's was 74 remember.

Overall S/R during Dhoni's tenure (05 - ) is 78. But Dhoni's own is about 89. India's SR during the period is 86, and this is despite them having such amazing hitters like Yuvraj, Raina, Kohli etc and still Dhoni's SR is better than his compatriots.

The issue here is Bevan benefited a lot from the performance of an awesome bowling line up, which almost always ensured Australia did not have a big target to chase down, and also an explosive top order which ensured that almost always when he came out to bat, the required run rate was extremely manageable. In high pressure chases, i.e, when the target was above 275,

Oppn	Target	 RR 	Runs	Balls	BatPos	SR	RPO	
SL	344	 6.88 	41	51	5	80%	 4.82 	
SA	330	 6.60 	3	4	7	75%	 4.50 	N.O
Pak	316	 6.32 	6	9	7	67%	 4.00 	N.O
Ind	316	 6.32 	49	56	4	88%	 5.25 	
SA	311	 6.22 	29	27	6	107%	 6.44 	
Ind	310	 6.33 	65	82	4	79%	 4.76 	
Ind	308	 6.16 	8	14	7	57%	 3.43 	
Ind	304	 6.08 	41	43	7	95%	 5.72 	
Ind	300	 6.00 	6	11	4	55%	 3.27 	
Ind*	225	 6.62 	12	20	6	60%	 3.60 	
Pak	291	 5.82 	5	9	4	56%	 3.33 	
WI	291	 5.82 	31	40	5	78%	 4.65 	
Ind	290	 5.80 	40	43	5	93%	 5.58 	
NZ	287	 5.74 	dnb					
SA	285	 5.70 	103	95	5	108%	 6.51 	
Ind	284	 5.68 	18	28	6	64%	 3.86 	
Eng	283	 5.66 	45	59	6	76%	 4.58 	
Pak	275	 5.50 	61	80	6	76%	 4.58

There is one splendid performance, that 100 against SA but nothing much otherwise to speak about. Also look at the disparity between required rate and Bevan's rate. He barely managed to keep up with the run rate and also gobbled up enough deliveries to put pressure n the remaining batsmen as well.

 

[ankitj]

Found this video where Dhoni plays a pull shot against a bouncer from Akhtar.

DHONI HITS 4 6 4 VS SHOAIB AKHTAR 2006 - YouTube

He's pretty decent itbt, not many people notice it because he is unconventional (to put it mildly ).

 

[Faizal Khan]

dhoni doesn't have a weakness against short ball. he can't play the swinging ball.

 

[benchmark00]

Found this video where Dhoni plays a pull shot against a bouncer from Akhtar.

DHONI HITS 4 6 4 VS SHOAIB AKHTAR 2006 - YouTube

He's pretty decent itbt, not many people notice it because he is unconventional (to put it mildly ).

So to illustrate how good Dhoni plays the short ball, you've found a video where first ball he gets a lofted edge over first slips head, second ball he pulls a rank short ball which gets up to his chest, and last ball spoons one over cover.

Hardly a roaring defence.

 

[Faizal Khan]

So to illustrate how good Dhoni plays the short ball, you've found a video where first ball he gets a lofted edge over first slips head, second ball he pulls a rank short ball which gets up to his chest, and last ball spoons one over cover.

Hardly a roaring defence.

We don't have to prove that Dhoni is strong against the short ball, you have to prove that he is weak.

 

[benchmark00]

We don't have to prove that Dhoni is strong against the short ball, you have to prove that he is weak.

Did you not read my post? Stunning.

 

[Faizal Khan]

Did you not read my post? Stunning.

They are all good shots. Just because they are unconventional and no one else plays them doesn't mean ****.

The balls went for boundaries which is what is required.

 

[Prince EWS]

Love this kid.

 

[benchmark00]

They are all good shots. Just because they are unconventional and no one else plays them doesn't mean ****.

The balls went for boundaries which is what is required.

lol.

 

[Uppercut]

Can't really split them. ODIs have changed a lot in the past twenty years and they were both (to their immense credit) quite specifically adapted to their own era.

I'll give it to Dhoni just because he managed to keep wicket and captain a hugely successful side at the same time.

 

[nikkoo]

UDRS still has a lot of flaws as seen in the recent England series

 

[Shri]

O...kay?

 

[ankitj]

So to illustrate how good Dhoni plays the short ball, you've found a video where first ball he gets a lofted edge over first slips head, second ball he pulls a rank short ball which gets up to his chest, and last ball spoons one over cover.

Hardly a roaring defence.

First ball was there for a leave outside of stump, and not a troubling bouncer in any case. Dhoni was just being adventurous. I don't know how you could call a short one at Akhtar 's pace a rank short ball. That's he kind of ball that will certainly trouble other Indian batsmen. Third one was again there for leave but Dhoni was being adventurous.

That apart, you can point out instances when Dhoni became victim of bouncer barrage? There aren't many that come to my mind, I might be wing though. He does have a weakness against swinging ball but that is different.

 

[Trichromatic]

First ball was there for a leave outside of stump, and not a troubling bouncer in any case. Dhoni was just being adventurous. I don't know how you could call a short one at Akhtar 's pace a rank short ball. That's he kind of ball that will certainly trouble other Indian batsmen. Third one was again there for leave but Dhoni was being adventurous.

That apart, you can point out instances when Dhoni became victim of bouncer barrage? There aren't many that come to my mind, I might be wing though. He does have a weakness against swinging ball but that is different.

Probably you should have posted extended highlights of his innings

##Rare## MS Dhoni 148 vs Pakistan TEST Match 2006 Faisalabad - YouTube

His 100 against SA

Cricket - India vs South Africa, 2nd Test - Mahendra Singh Dhoni's 100 - YouTube

Some pull shots against Steyn, Morkel and Kallis

"RARE" MS DHONI 63(77) VS PAKISTAN 1ST ODI 2007 (GUWAHATI) - YouTube Skip to 1:03

His 92 against Australia

MS Dhoni 92 vs Australia 2nd Test 2008 - YouTube

Slammed Siddle for a six, some pulls shots against Lee (although one can say that ball didn't rise high)