Dhoni Vs Gilchrist in ODIs.

[Jarquis]

Well done on completely ignoring the entire thrust of the conversation, which is that averages are skewed by not outs, particularly in one day cricket, and well done on being completely unable to grasp the point being made.

Everyone knows that averages are total runs divided by number of dismissals. Colour you surprised if you want. It's cricket stats 101.

The point is that if you bat in the middle order and play a lot of innings, and a lot of them are not outs, you will have a substantially higher average than someone who opens, plays a lot of innings and doesn't have many not outs (case in point comparing Gilchrist and Dhoni).

Well explain why that isn't the general rule. Over history, openers average more. Why?
It's to Dhoni's credit he doesn't get out, it should be praised and acknowledged as a positive and not used against him.

 

[BackFootPunch]

Jesus. I go away for a couple of hours and miss the debate of the century.

Still with Marcuss on this one though. If you average 30, then get 0* in your next innings, your average has not been inflated - the only way to inflate your average is scoring runs.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

0* will keep the average same obviously which is not the point, the point of discussion here which I believe is that scoring runs and remaining Not Out have impact on average or not. If a batsman score runs and remains Not Out, it increases his career average.

 

[Jarquis]

No, BFP's point is fair enough.

Remember Monk said "the more NOs you have the more your average is inflated"

Being not out does inflate your average. As in, makes it bigger. As in, the more not outs you have in your career, the bigger your average will be. As in, it inflates it.

lul.

 

[Top_Cat]

I find the involved discussion about means without an attendant discussion about distributions amusing.

 

[Red]

No, BFP's point is fair enough.

Remember Monk said "the more NOs you have the more your average is inflated"





lul.

Of course I meant when you score runs. You know that. I know that. We were comparing Dhoni and Gilchrist's amount of NOs. And they've both scored runs, obviously. Don't be a tosser.

 

[smash84]

to the OP,

Dhoni

 

[ankitj]

You can't surely be suggesting what I think you are? Players would just attempt to score at a strike rate of around 150 in Tests if so, taking risks of every ball. T20 batting averages would be similar to Test batting averages.

Yeah I didn't make much sense there. Ignore.

 

[ankitj]

Well explain why that isn't the general rule. Over history, openers average more. Why?
It's to Dhoni's credit he doesn't get out, it should be praised and acknowledged as a positive and not used against him.

Yeah, that's the point as well. Dhoni 's average outstrips the average of batsmen that bat at his position more than Gilchrist outstrips hits own set.

Think of some perfectly good lower order batsmen like Yuvraj Singh. He doesn't average 50! In fact there are times when relatively lower average of good lower order batsmen is explained away rather lazily by saying that they have to take more risks and they don't get to score big hundreds. Pretty sure that argument has Been made on CW too. So basically when it comes to using hand waving arguments, they get used and abused both ways.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Jesus I hate the mathematical bull**** that this forum gets into about not outs, such a waste of time. Once again a case of people on this forum putting numbers ahead of effect on the game.

The fact that Bevan had so many not outs is a good thing, because generally he was batting as one of the last recognised batsmen in the Australian side in ODI cricket, so him batting till the end of the innings meant that the side was more likely to have a proper batsmen in for longer; if batting first this maximised their total, and if batting second they were more likely to win.

 

[Spark]

Nice to see we've all got our semantic hats on. I'm pretty sure what Monk/benchmark are getting at is the fact that the 'meaning' of an average is not equal across the batting spectrum, and a batting average of 40 when opening may be just as valuable - and I would argue, more valuable - than a batting average of 45 at 4/5.

ODI stats have never been the most meaningful anyway.

 

[ankitj]

Here's another proof of Dhoni and Bevan awesomeness. They both make into 10 fastest to complete 5000 runs.

Records | One-Day Internationals | Batting records | Fastest to 5000 runs | ESPN Cricinfo

Surely they are at a disadvantage for a record like this. The very thing that allows them to make an appearance in this list is the precise thing that gives them good averages.

 

[ankitj]

Nice to see we've all got our semantic hats on. I'm pretty sure what Monk/benchmark are getting at is the fact that the 'meaning' of an average is not equal across the batting spectrum, and a batting average of 40 when opening may be just as valuable - and I would argue, more valuable - than a batting average of 45 at 4/5.

ODI stats have never been the most meaningful anyway.

So how much is a lower order batsman like Yuvraj who averages 36 or so worth? Worth an opener that averages <30?

If Dhoni's 50 average is comparable to Gilchrist’a 35, Yuvraj is equivalent to someone who averages 20 as opener?

 

[Quaggas]

Kaplan-Meier, or something?

 

[BackFootPunch]

The meaning of average is not equal across the batting spectrum because opening and batting in the finisher role are completely different things that are nigh on impossible to compare.

Comparing Gilchrist and Dhoni based on average is ridiculous.

Compare them on how many matches they were largely responsible for winning. Compare them on their relative standing when looked at against others of the same type. Compare them on who was of more value to his team.

But looking at their averages and saying that's the reason Dhoni is better is idiotic. So is arguing that Gilchrist should be cut some slack because he opened.

 

[Spark]

So how much is a lower order batsman like Yuvraj who averages 36 or so worth? Worth an opener that averages <30?

If Dhoni's 50 average is comparable to Gilchrist’a 35, Yuvraj is equivalent to someone who averages 20 as opener?

I didn't say that, and it's a bit lame of you to be putting words in my mouth.

It's as-a-general-rule-thing, there's no hard or fast statistical trend to it. I don't think it has much to do with not outs at all, more to do with the fields set, the bowlers used in the middle overs and the like.

 

[Spark]

The meaning of average is not equal across the batting spectrum because opening and batting in the finisher role are completely different things that are nigh on impossible to compare.

Comparing Gilchrist and Dhoni based on average is ridiculous.

Compare them on how many matches they were largely responsible for winning. Compare them on their relative standing when looked at against others of the same type. Compare them on who was of more value to his team.

But looking at their averages and saying that's the reason Dhoni is better is idiotic. So is arguing that Gilchrist should be cut some slack because he opened.

This, basically.

 

[ankitj]

I didn't say that, and it's a bit lame of you to be putting words in my mouth.

It's as-a-general-rule-thing, there's no hard or fast statistical trend to it. I don't think it has much to do with not outs at all, more to do with the fields set, the bowlers used in the middle overs and the like.

You are welcome to explain me the nuances. :-)

Also, as I said before, I totally expect some to make the opposite argument. Because Yuvraj is a finisher and has to bat with tail, his average of 36 odd is worth average of 42 or so as opener. That's the thing with these hand waving arguments. We just want to revert to the mean by explaining away the deviations like Dhoni and Bevan because they make us uncomfortable.

 

[ankitj]

Agree with BFP (obviously). The argument though is about the general rules being thrown around like averages are affected by not outs and batting in top order is harder than lower order etc.

 

[smash84]

as more and more time goes by I think Dhoni is clearly the better choice

How many openers do you think had comparable or better showing as opener than did Gilly? A fair few I reckon. Jayasurity, Anwar, hayden, Tendulkar etc

How many number 6 or 7 have comparable or better showing than Dhoni as a number 6 or 7? Only Bevan I reckon (and that too marginally)