***Official*** Pakistan and England in UAE

[KungFu_Kallis]

So first match in and my predictions of 1-0 England have already been dicked. I really suck at this. Predicted a 2-1 to Australia as well iirc.

Don't worry I'm sure you're not as gutted as cheerleader Nasser

 

[Spark]

Bell being allergic to tough runs isn't quite fair tbh. And I'm not even a huge fan of the guy.

EDIT: Tough runs is incredibly difficult to judge on too simply because of the nature of the situation, the fact that they don't come around very often, and often what constitutes 'tough' runs is difficult to gauge purely from the scoreboard, there can be all kinds of factors involved.

 

[KungFu_Kallis]

Bell being allergic to tough runs isn't quite fair tbh. And I'm not even a huge fan of the guy.

Maybe I'm allergic to Bell... I just always get this feeling that he's a bit mechanical and can't adapt his play and grind it out with back to the wall.. he seems to need to score his runs pretty not ugly.. recall him even saying that in an interview once

 

[KungFu_Kallis]

Bell being allergic to tough runs isn't quite fair tbh. And I'm not even a huge fan of the guy.

EDIT: Tough runs is incredibly difficult to judge on too simply because of the nature of the situation, the fact that they don't come around very often, and often what constitutes 'tough' runs is difficult to gauge purely from the scoreboard, there can be all kinds of factors involved.

Yeah... a lot of it simply comes down to gut feel... and what kind of viewer you are... if you value sweet strokeplay more, or a good grind

 

[Spark]

Maybe I'm allergic to Bell... I just always get this feeling that he's a bit mechanical and can't adapt his play and grind it out with back to the wall.. he seems to need to score his runs pretty not ugly.. recall him even saying that in an interview once

I agree that his technique is mechanical, but that's his technique. He can't and shouldn't change his technique to suddenly look ugly, his technique means that if he scores, it'll look good regardless.

 

[Prince EWS]

Oh come on, the order is the whole fun

Mine would be.... hmmm.... hard to balance current form vs long term class when drawing up the list, depends on your personal emphasis I suppose.. my order would be something like

Tendulkar - still looks a million dollars and churning out solid scores if not hundreds)
Kallis - still majestic at the crease and scoring big
Trott - seems to make mostly tough runs
Clarke - improving massively, gets tough runs now
Cook - lean run lately but been churning out hundreds
Dravid - looks out of form in current series but been massive the last year or so
Sangakkara - consistent and seems to get a hundred in every series
Hussey - playing tight again, amazing run of form in the last year
Amla - improving, a flair player, and making more hundreds now
De Villiers - improving, ditto with the flair but still learning how to make tough runs

Omitted Bell as I still think he's allergic to tough runs I guess I have a thing about them and they count about 4x more than soft runs to me

Just thought you wanted 10 batsmen better than Trott tbh; didn't know the order mattered.

Sangakkara
Kallis
Tendulkar
Chanderpaul
Younis
Samaraweera
de Villiers
Clarke
Bell
Amla

That'll do. Pretty similar to the original order.

 

[Spark]

Yeah... a lot of it simply comes down to gut feel... and what kind of viewer you are... if you value sweet strokeplay more, or a good grind

Sweet strokeplay can sometimes be just as effective at digging you out of a hole as "grinding" though - sometimes moreso, as you put pressure back on the bowler rather than just letting them bowl at you. I have a really obvious example in mind (well, obvious for me )

 

[KungFu_Kallis]

I agree that his technique is mechanical, but that's his technique. He can't and shouldn't change his technique to suddenly look ugly, his technique means that if he scores, it'll look good regardless.

Hmm yeah... but I don't think his problem is his technique as such... I think he looks mechanical because of a mental issue... if we compare with say Laxman (the old Laxman not the creaky terminator version)... Laxman looks silky as hell but has that mental edge that gets him tough runs, even while looking silky... It's almost like Bell is too shy to dominate and be the main man.... it's quite a peculiar perception really... but I do think he has scored a lot of his runs while England have been dominating in the past couple of years and it's masked his deficiency almost completely

 

[Spark]

By "mechanical" I meant too obviously textbook for my tastes ftr. Have posted about this many times but I swear the guy runs through a checklist when he bats. It's absolutely no surprise to me at all that something a bit weird ie. a doosra has him a mess.

 

[KungFu_Kallis]

Sweet strokeplay can sometimes be just as effective at digging you out of a hole as "grinding" though - sometimes moreso, as you put pressure back on the bowler rather than just letting them bowl at you. I have a really obvious example in mind (well, obvious for me )

Whodunnit?

Love that we're kinda drifting off thread topic btw... sorry for hijacking... I just love a good batting debate

 

[Prince EWS]

By "mechanical" I meant too obviously textbook for my tastes ftr. Have posted about this many times but I swear the guy runs through a checklist when he bats. It's absolutely no surprise to me at all that something a bit weird ie. a doosra has him a mess.

Looked awesome in this series on turning wickets against Murali though. That series is what always pops into my mind when I think of Bell (and indeed Prior) against spin; it's probably why I go on about it so much.

 

[KungFu_Kallis]

By "mechanical" I meant too obviously textbook for my tastes ftr. Have posted about this many times but I swear the guy runs through a checklist when he bats. It's absolutely no surprise to me at all that something a bit weird ie. a doosra has him a mess.

Hmmm yeah... he kind of seems premeditated sometimes before the ball comes down... like how he telegraphs his paddle sweep shot so early that the slip even had time to run around to the leg side and take the catch in the recent tour game And I swear sometimes I hear him call out "No run!" to his batting partner before he's even finished blocking the ball... odd that

And it's the way he manages to still sound both incredibly naive and incredibly cliche'd in all his interviews.. almost like he's a mindless drone on autopilot

 

[Spark]

Was he actually awesome though, or did he just loft Murali a few times over his head? As vic_orthdox said, I'm not really convinced by his technique against spin. Far too reliant on the big shot, doesn't have the deft wristwork or touch play to maneuver the spinners like a really high quality player of spin would.

I mean, Murali was the only guy who got him out that series...

 

[Black_Warrior]

Be very surprised if Pakistan were that competitive in Eng, SA or Oz as they simply do not have batting or seam bowling depth

That's a dire point really

Wahab Riaz won Pakistan a test match in England

Junaid Khan has a 5 wicket haul against Sri Lanka on conditions that would suit their batting.

Neither could make it to the playing XI.
If that is not depth, I don't know what is.

 

[Prince EWS]

Was he actually awesome though, or did he just loft Murali a few times over his head? As vic_orthdox said, I'm not really convinced by his technique against spin. Far too reliant on the big shot, doesn't have the deft wristwork or touch play to maneuver the spinners like a really high quality player of spin would.

I thought he played him legitimately well; he had a controlled game against him, used his feet well (and I don't just mean in an attacking lofted sense) and read him well. I know what Jack means wrt to how he plays the lesser spinners but he didn't play Murali like that when he came up against him in turning conditions and he was fine; I think he'd be fine against Ajmal too if he could actually read him out of the hand (which is something he did with Murali pretty successfully, so it's odd).

 

[KungFu_Kallis]

That's a dire point really

Wahab Riaz won Pakistan a test match in England

Junaid Khan has a 5 wicket haul against Sri Lanka on conditions that would suit their batting.

Neither could make it to the playing XI.
If that is not depth, I don't know what is.

Depth is when Peter Siddle is labelled the leader of your attack and then doesn't want a rest in case he can't get back in?

 

[Prince EWS]

That's a dire point really

Wahab Riaz won Pakistan a test match in England

Junaid Khan has a 5 wicket haul against Sri Lanka on conditions that would suit their batting.

Neither could make it to the playing XI.
If that is not depth, I don't know what is.

If unproven bowlers with fairly average domestic records (okay Junaid's is good; he's still unproven though ) who have both played one especially good Test match each in their entire careers isn't depth, then you don't know what depth is.

Well then you don't know what depth is, my good man.

 

[Spark]

I thought he played him legitimately well; he had a controlled game against him, used his feet well (and I don't just mean in an attacking lofted sense) and read him well. I know what Jack means wrt to how he plays the lesser spinners but he didn't play Murali like that when he came up against him in turning conditions and he was fine; I think he'd be fine against Ajmal too if he could actually read him out of the hand (which is something he did with Murali pretty successfully, so it's odd).

Even if he does read it he'd want to do a much better job of getting to the pitch than today, where he was very much stuck on the crease and neither-here-nor-there.

 

[Black_Warrior]

I don't say this very often but I am extremely extremely proud of Pakistan cricket team today...but still feel the performance could have been better..it could have been an innings victory..and would have preferred at least one bloke to get a 100.

 

[Prince EWS]

Even if he does read it he'd want to do a much better job of getting to the pitch than today, where he was very much stuck on the crease and neither-here-nor-there.

Was because he wasn't reading it IMO; he was just bamboozled by it. Obviously he could've just smothered the spin by getting to the pitch, but it's instinctive to think you'll just play bowlers off the pitch if you can't read them out of the hand. Reckon he'll have a different plan come the second Test; one bad Test does not suddenly make him a lesser player.