An effort to pick an All-time ODI XI

[Jono]

Dhoni has won a ****load of matches in chases though. He is an amazing ODI batsman. He's played many knocks where he's come in at 6 or 7 with the match either in the balance or India in strife and either calmly eased them to victory, or blisteringly taken them home.

Also the fact he completely changed the way he bats as a player due to the team is pretty impressive.

I wouldn't have Dhoni #3 of all time like Shri, but I can definitely see him as the top 10-15 of all-time, and one of the top 3 lower order batsmen of all time.

Dhoni is in my team as a lower order batsman. Who is better than him in that position that isn't in my team? Arguably Klusener I guess but who else?

 

[Shri]

As is often the case, sometimes you need to look at context as opposed to purely averages & strike-rates.

Ponder this thought......do you really think Dhoni (or Bevan for that matter) would be averaging 50 & with a SR of 90 (in Dhoni's case) if they batted at say no.3 for a more mediocre team like the W.I's or NZ of this era?

It certainly helps when you come in at no.7 in a very dominant team & have 48 not outs (out of 170 innings). I'm not doubting it's a fantastic batting record, I just don't see Dhoni as a better ODI batsmen than the likes of a Saeed Anwar or a De Silva if you strip away his fairly privileged position of generally coming in around overs 37-40 with his team in a strong position.

Only thats not the case usually. He comes in around the 25th over mostly with the team 3 or 4 down for not many. He generally first sets a platform by rotating the strike for 10-15 overs and hits out in the end.

And yeah, Dhoni batted at 3 at the early stages of his career and scored some big hundreds too. His 183* against SL while chasing and his 148 against Pak for instance came when he played at the top order.

 

[Shri]

Viv Richards?

Yeah forgot about him. Well I guess Dhoni would still be in my top 5.

 

[Zinzan]

Dhoni has won a ****load of matches in chases though. He is an amazing ODI batsman. He's played many knocks where he's come in at 6 or 7 with the match either in the balance or India in strife and either calmly eased them to victory, or blisteringly taken them home.

Also the fact he completely changed the way he bats as a player due to the team is pretty impressive.

I wouldn't have Dhoni #3 of all time like Shri, but I can definitely see him as the top 10-15 of all-time, and one of the top 3 lower order batsmen of all time.

Dhoni is in my team as a lower order batsman. Who is better than him in that position that isn't in my team? Arguably Klusener I guess but who else?

I get that, my point was including both Gilchrist & Dhoni seems redundant because if you did decide Gilchrist is your choice as an opener, you wouldn't need Dhoni as a lower order batsman anyway. BTW, I'd have no problem with Dhoni being selected over Gilchrist as the best keeper/batsmen, but not both unless you genuinely rate both amongst the top 6 ODI batsmen of AT.

Only thats not the case usually. He comes in around the 25th over mostly with the team 3 or 4 down for not many. He generally first sets a platform by rotating the strike for 10-15 overs and hits out in the end.

And yeah, Dhoni batted at 3 at the early stages of his career and scored some big hundreds too. His 183* against SL while chasing and his 148 against Pak for instance came when he played at the top order.

I'd need to do a deeper analysis into his career record tbh but intuitively I find it hard to believe that India with the strong batting lineup they've had in the last few years would often be 3-4 down for not many.

 

[Prince EWS]

I get that, my point was including both Gilchrist & Dhoni seems redundant because if you did decide Gilchrist is your choice as an opener, you wouldn't need Dhoni as a lower order batsman anyway. BTW, I'd have no problem with Dhoni being selected over Gilchrist as the best keeper/batsmen, but not both unless you genuinely rate both amongst the top 6 ODI batsmen of AT.




I'd need to do a deeper analysis into his career record tbh but intuitively I find it hard to believe that India with the strong batting lineup they've had in the last few years would often be 3-4 down for not many.

He rates Gilchrist one of the best two openers on batting alone and Dhoni the best option at #7 on batting alone. That's his point. The fact that they both kept wicket is incidental in his analysis.

 

[smash84]

It certainly helps when you come in at no.7 in a very dominant team & have 48 not outs (out of 170 innings). I'm not doubting it's a fantastic batting record, I just don't see Dhoni as a better ODI batsmen than the likes of a Saeed Anwar or a De Silva if you strip away his fairly privileged position of generally coming in around overs 37-40 with his team in a strong position.

He might not be a better batsman than De Silva or Anwar but you need to make an apples to apples comparison. You need to compare him with the batsmen who usually came down at that position in the batting orders. Dhoni shines at that position in ODIs

 

[Daemon]

Worth noting he averages 82 and 69 at 3 and 4 respectively at a run a ball.

 

[Daemon]

Only thats not the case usually. He comes in around the 25th over mostly with the team 3 or 4 down for not many. He generally first sets a platform by rotating the strike for 10-15 overs and hits out in the end.

That aside I seem to remember him promoting himself to 4 when 2 quick wickets went down to stabilise things, then having century partnerships with Yuvraj a couple of times from that position. I don't trust my memory though, wish there was a way to see batting stats from when the batsmen comes in to bat at 5 or 10 over intervals.

 

[L Trumper]

You can make case for Dhoni being one of the top 5 ODI batsman ever. And worth the place as a batsman alone. I'd rate Viv, Sachin, Bevan, Zaheer ahead of him. Apart from that there aren't many who we can conclusively say better than Dhoni.

 

[smash84]

I think Dhoni has done enough in ODIs to make him as the wk of choice in an ATXI ahead of Gilchrist.

 

[Howe_zat]

Well they have very different roles as ODI bats, and so aren't in competition with each other as batsmen. If you decide that you can't have both, then they are in competition as keepers - in which case Gilchrist must take it.

The only way that you can have Dhoni and not Gilchrist is to say that you have a player that does Gilchrist's aggressor role at least as well as him, and/or would bring something else to the side that can compensate for handing the gloves to Dhoni.

I don't think there's a player that ever did Gilchrist's job with the bat significantly better than he did, so that's not available. The only player who was just as good with the bat as Gilly and could bowl to a reasonable standard is Jayasuriya, so that's the only way I can see it working. Even then, I have doubts on what Sanath's bowling would do at this level.

 

[smash84]

Well they have very different roles as ODI bats, and so aren't in competition with each other as batsmen. If you decide that you can't have both, then they are in competition as keepers - in which case Gilchrist must take it.

The only way that you can have Dhoni and not Gilchrist is to say that you have a player that does Gilchrist's aggressor role at least as well as him, and/or would bring something else to the side that can compensate for handing the gloves to Dhoni.

I don't think there's a player that ever did Gilchrist's job with the bat significantly better than he did, so that's not available. The only player who was just as good with the bat as Gilly and could bowl to a reasonable standard is Jayasuriya, so that's the only way I can see it working. Even then, I have doubts on what Sanath's bowling would do at this level.

Gilchrist has a lot of competition for the opener's slot in ODIs. What is Gilchrist's ODI record? An average around 35 with a great SR. You can find a lot of other good openers with a much better average and a reasonably good SR. I would rate Anwar M Waugh, Jayasuriya, Tendy, Hayden, to name just a few as equal or better ODI bats than Gilchrist.

Difficult to find such a list in comparison to Dhoni

How many batsmen lower down the order average above 50 and have a SR of 90?

 

[Howe_zat]

I'm not just talking about openers though - I'm taking about the specifically the player who will go with aggression from the word go and who you know will get your team further and further ahead the longer he stays there. Talented batsmen who throw the bat right from the gun, getting you at least a quick start and just maybe an unmatchable innings. It won't always work, but you accept that based on the rewards they might get you.

A better average with lesser strike rate isn't what we're looking for here - there are plenty of batsmen in our hypothetical top six like that. The best possible combination of players is one that can feasibly do everything, and the Gilchrists, Jayasuriyas, Gayles and Sehwags have a specific role within that.

You are sacrificing a lot when you get rid of Gilchrist from this lineup, both in the fact that he was among the very best at this and the fact that he kept to a very good standard for many years. Of those you listed, Jayasuriya is the only one that can match what he brings to the team.

 

[smash84]

I'm not just talking about openers though - I'm taking about the specifically the player who will go with aggression from the word go and who you know will get your team further and further ahead the longer he stays there. Talented batsmen who throw the bat right from the gun, getting you at least a quick start and just maybe an unmatchable innings. It won't always work, but you accept that based on the rewards they might get you.

A better average with lesser strike rate isn't what we're looking for here - there are plenty of batsmen in our hypothetical top six like that. The best possible combination of players is one that can feasibly do everything, and the Gilchrists, Jayasuriyas, Gayles and Sehwags have a specific role within that.

You are sacrificing a lot when you get rid of Gilchrist from this lineup, both in the fact that he was among the very best at this and the fact that he kept to a very good standard for many years. Of those you listed, Jayasuriya is the only one that can match what he brings to the team.

But Gilchrist is too much of a hit and miss for an ATXI. You want consistency which is where the other players take the cake. They can play a Gilchrist like innings mind you. Didn't Sehwag just score 200+ at blistering rate? Didn't Sachin score 200? Didn't Anwar score 194 off 147 deliveries? So all these guys are capable of doing what Gilchrist can do and they are more consistent than Gilchrist. Otherwise what is the difference between Gilchrist and Afridi's batting?

 

[Eclipse]

Is Ponting really one of the top 5 ODI batsmen of all time, or is there a smidgen of Australian bias thrown in there? Also, most objective folk would select Pollock over Mcgrath for ODI's. especially if you consider his batting

Easily. He's played some of the greatest ODI innings of all time i.e WC final, second most 100s, second most runs, awesome fielder.

In his prime he had gears most of his contemporary's did not. So he was very dangerous. I would have him below only Tendulkar and Richards

 

[Cricketismylife]

Interesting how underrated Flintoff is in odis. Maybe it's because he didnt play enough odis compared to other all timers, but I've always thought he was a superb one day player and the statistics back it up.

In tests, his bowling was fast and awkward to face but somehow he didnt end up doing justice to his talent. However, his style of bowling benefited from odis, where batsman felt the pressure to score quickly, and were unable to do so due to his trajectory and action, and he picked up wickets at 24 while only going at 4.39 in an era of bigger scores.

Similarly his batting talent that was often wasted in tests, proved invaluable in odis where explosive cameos can change the game. Runs at 32 with a strike rate of 88/99 underlines his value with the bat.

He was someone who could have easily held his place in the England one day side as a pure batsman or bowler, the fact that he did both together made him an excellent one day package.

 

[kiwiviktor81]

But Gilchrist is too much of a hit and miss for an ATXI. You want consistency

This is where I have to disagree. If you have a whole team stacked with awesome but inconsistent players some of them are going to pull it off, it's just a matter of who and how much damage they do.

 

[Jacknife]

Interesting how underrated Flintoff is in odis. Maybe it's because he didnt play enough odis compared to other all timers, but I've always thought he was a superb one day player and the statistics back it up.

In tests, his bowling was fast and awkward to face but somehow he didnt end up doing justice to his talent. However, his style of bowling benefited from odis, where batsman felt the pressure to score quickly, and were unable to do so due to his trajectory and action, and he picked up wickets at 24 while only going at 4.39 in an era of bigger scores.

Similarly his batting talent that was often wasted in tests, proved invaluable in odis where explosive cameos can change the game. Runs at 32 with a strike rate of 88/99 underlines his value with the bat.

He was someone who could have easily held his place in the England one day side as a pure batsman or bowler, the fact that he did both together made him an excellent one day package.

Agree and I've said the same myself before, seems to get a little underrated in one day cricket, not many players around that could/can bowl 90mph and hit a ton.
I don't think it help's Freddie that he played in such a inconsistent side that never turned up in WC's and so was never part of a gun side.

 

[NUFAN]

You can make case for Dhoni being one of the top 5 ODI batsman ever. And worth the place as a batsman alone. I'd rate Viv, Sachin, Bevan, Zaheer ahead of him. Apart from that there aren't many who we can conclusively say better than Dhoni.

You can make a case now due to his performance in the World Cup Final. If he had of failed like he did for the majority of the tournament and the previous World Cup, I wouldn't put Dhoni in the absolute top tier at all. It's why I don't rate Hussey as highly as others do.

Agree and I've said the same myself before, seems to get a little underrated in one day cricket, not many players around that could/can bowl 90mph and hit a ton.
I don't think it help's Freddie that he played in such a inconsistent side that never turned up in WC's and so was never part of a gun side.

Yeah Flintoff was an excellent ODI player, but he wouldn't make my top team nor my second world XI. I wonder where he would rank in the list of English best ODI players of all time? Top 3-4 probably.

 

[miscer]

where is saqlain ITT? such a good bowler. best odi bowler perhaps.