Ian Botham vs Kapil Dev

[ret]

I haven't gone through the whole thread so this may have been discussed:

Based on numbers and performances at peak: Ian Botham is an excellent choice and probably a better all-round package than the other 3 great all-rounders of his time

What does Kapil have? For one tons of talent (underachieved) and lots of spirit.

Spirit: Let's go back to the 1983 WC. Ind is 17-5 and then 20-6 (this is from the memory so pardon if there are any irregularities), Kapil walks in, scores 175*. Or take that catch he took of Viv in the final. Those efforts were full of spirit that is difficult to describe. On top of that, he bowled on the unforgiving tracks in Ind (w/o much support from the other end) where the instinct of most captains is to bring the spinners on asap.

Talent: When ever I used to watch Kapil bat, it was a wonderful experience. He made batting look so easy. When many were falling down in SA, he came up with a gem of an inning (125). With a little more application, his numbers would have been a lot better. In fact, I want be surprised if he was the best batsman and fielder amongst the 4 all-rounders. His batting in the series in Eng has been breath-taking .... Talking about his bowling, he cherrished conditions in Australia. He probably has the best bowling record in Australia of the 4 all-rounders. If he had played more of his tests in Australia, who knows he would have a much better record.

Only thing against him (apart from not utilizing his full potential) is that he prolonged his career to go for that world record. He could have retired in 1992 after that maginificent series in Australia and the wc.

 

[Furball]

I haven't gone through the whole thread so this may have been discussed:

Based on numbers and performances at peak: Ian Botham is an excellent choice and probably a better all-round package than the other 3 great all-rounders of his time

What does Kapil have? For one tons of talent (underachieved) and lots of spirit.

Spirit: Let's go back to the 1983 WC. Ind is 17-5 and then 20-6 (this is from the memory so pardon if there are any irregularities), Kapil walks in, scores 175*. Or take that catch he took of Viv in the final. Those efforts were full of spirit that is difficult to describe. On top of that, he bowled on the unforgiving tracks in Ind (w/o much support from the other end) where the instinct of most captains is to bring the spinners on asap.

Talent: When ever I used to watch Kapil bat, it was a wonderful experience. He made batting look so easy. When many were falling down in SA, he came up with a gem of an inning (125). With a little more application, his numbers would have been a lot better. In fact, I want be surprised if he was the best batsman and fielder amongst the 4 all-rounders. His batting in the series in Eng has been breath-taking .... Talking about his bowling, he cherrished conditions in Australia. He probably has the best bowling record in Australia of the 4 all-rounders. If he had played more of his tests in Australia, who knows he would have a much better record.

Only thing against him (apart from not utilizing his full potential) is that he prolonged his career to go for that world record. He could have retired in 1992 after that maginificent series in Australia and the wc.

Another one using this faulty line of argument.

 

[ret]

Another one using this faulty line of argument.

If you agree with the rest, I am ok with having put one "faulty" argument

 

[smash84]

lol....well put

 

[Furball]

The "Kapil was the best batsman of the four" is an interesting argument. I'd probably take Botham because he spent the majority of his good career in the top 6 anyway, but I'd definitely take Kapil over Imran on account of his strike rate.

 

[ankitj]

Yeah, Botham was the most compact batsman out of the four.

 

[ret]

The "Kapil was the best batsman of the four" is an interesting argument. I'd probably take Botham because he spent the majority of his good career in the top 6 anyway, but I'd definitely take Kapil over Imran on account of his strike rate.

I have no problems with anyone selecting Botham over Kapil as all of them are gems, you can't go wrong with anyone .... Since Kapil is under-rated, I am trying to write more about him and ofc he has been one of my cricketing heros

There are quite a few clips on Kapil on the you tube, below is one to enjoy:

Kapil Dev 97 off 93 balls 3rd test vs England 1982 - YouTube

^ if I am not wrong, Kapil was MoS in that series

 

[smash84]

The "Kapil was the best batsman of the four" is an interesting argument. I'd probably take Botham because he spent the majority of his good career in the top 6 anyway, but I'd definitely take Kapil over Imran on account of his strike rate.

I am not quite sure though how much of an impact does a high SR really have in a test match. Can anyone shed a bit of light on it?

 

[Furball]

I am not quite sure though how much of an impact does a high SR really have in a test match. Can anyone shed a bit of light on it?

For a number 7 or 8 batsman, I'd much rather have someone who can bash a quick 30 or 40 rather than someone who's going to take longer and potentially get stranded when he's 15 or 20 not out.

 

[Prince EWS]

For a number 7 or 8 batsman, I'd much rather have someone who can bash a quick 30 or 40 rather than someone who's going to take longer and potentially get stranded when he's 15 or 20 not out.

On the flip side, one could argue that the first job of a lower order batsman is to ensure none of the middle order get stranded. Assuming both batsmen average the same, the runs Imran might lose by being stranded occasionally could be picked up in cases where he ensures no-one else does and maximise their output.

 

[ret]

I am not quite sure though how much of an impact does a high SR really have in a test match. Can anyone shed a bit of light on it?

Depends upon the situation, for e.g. if you have someone like Sehwag, who opens the innings, plays at an amazing SR w/ that high avg, it can demoralize the opposition and make it easier for others .... Also by getting runs quickly, you give the bowlers more time to go for 20 wkts (which can help a team like India)

Batting lower down the order, someone playing with a higher SR can turn the game like Gilly used to do. And if you are playing with the tail, it helps

 

[Furball]

On the flip side, one could argue that the first job of a lower order batsman is to ensure none of the middle order get stranded. Assuming both batsmen average the same, the runs Imran might lose by being stranded occasionally could be picked up in cases where he ensures no-one else does and maximise their output.

This is very true, and a valid point in favour of Imran.

My personal preference of the two would be Kapil; I think he's better equipped to really ram home an advantage if he comes in with 300 or 400 already on the board; I think he's a better bet to seize the momentum and tilt the game in your favour when it's roughly honours even (say, 5 down for 250) by hitting a quick 50 that changes the momentum of the innings, and I think he's the better bet if you're really getting owned to score quickly a la Broad and Swann at Trent Bridge and rescue the innings from "total disaster" to "well, we've at least got a fighting chance if we bowl well."

 

[Zinzan]

Botham rather clearly if we're talking test cricket. Between 1978-1985 he was probably more complete than Imran, Sobers or Miller, if not for a brief time before he fell away.

 

[smash84]

more like 1978-82 is the period where he was very good

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround

If Botham had retired in 1982 would he have been hailed as the greatest all rounder ever? Or would there be calls that he didn't play long enough?

 

[ret]

If you are judging guys like Kapil, Richards, Sobers, Sehwag, etc .... you also have to look beyond pure numbers

 

[Zinzan]

more like 1978-82 is the period where he was very good

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

If Botham had retired in 1982 would he have been hailed as the greatest all rounder ever? Or would there be calls that he didn't play long enough?

Why didn't you post his 77-82' numbers then?

 

[smash84]

Because the difference in his numbers between 78-82 is a lot. If you see his 83-85 numbers you can clearly see that you he had gone down a few levels. We already know his 78-82 numbers

 

[Hit Wicket]

Kapil for a variety of reasons :

1. Botham's best was a 4 year peak which coincided with a lot of depleted squads in the world thanks to Packer and World series.

2. Has a very poor record against the West Indies. Had no series against them in which he had any impact at all. No centuries or any meaningful knock against them. Kapil was stellar against the West Indies, scoring 3 centuries along with a few superb 80s and 90s and averages below 25 against them with the ball. In more than one series emerged as one of the best bowlers of the series between the two teams and that takes some doing when the competition is the likes of Marshall and Holding.

3. While Botham was very good in the slips, Kapil never fielded close in for the number of catches to be of any use as a metric. But Kapil was a superb outfielder in his own right, one of the most complete fielders of the 80s.

Once the top teams of the world got their squads back and settled after Packer, Botham's "decline" suddenly set in. Coincidence?

 

[ret]

Kapil for a variety of reasons :

1. Botham's best was a 4 year peak which coincided with a lot of depleted squads in the world thanks to Packer and World series.

2. Has a very poor record against the West Indies. Had no series against them in which he had any impact at all. No centuries or any meaningful knock against them. Kapil was stellar against the West Indies, scoring 3 centuries along with a few superb 80s and 90s and averages below 25 against them with the ball. In more than one series emerged as one of the best bowlers of the series between the two teams and that takes some doing when the competition is the likes of Marshall and Holding.

3. While Botham was very good in the slips, Kapil never fielded close in for the number of catches to be of any use as a metric. But Kapil was a superb outfielder in his own right, one of the most complete fielders of the 80s.

Once the top teams of the world got their squads back and settled after Packer, Botham's "decline" suddenly set in. Coincidence?

Hmmm, interesting point wrt packer

And yes, Kapil has a good record against wi .... firc, his best bowling fig of 9 wkts is against too .... 9/86 or something

 

[smash84]

yeah....kapil sure seemed to lift his game against the WI