Ian Botham vs Kapil Dev

[Top_Cat]

Dominating with both bat and ball for your first 50 Tests is a little different to just doing it with either bat or ball, tbh.

That aside, when comparing to peers, Ambrose was the best or thereabouts for the majority of his career whereas I doubt anyone would say that about Waqar or Kapil.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Should have retired in 1982.

19 5fers and 10 hundreds in that period. Friggin hell

Now people may understand why we say Botham ahead of Imran. To be fair that one is a tough call. Either could be picked but i'd go Botham.

 

[Jono]

Dominating with both bat and ball for your first 50 Tests is a little different to just doing it with either bat or ball, tbh.

That aside, when comparing to peers, Ambrose was the best or thereabouts for the majority of his career whereas I doubt anyone would say that about Waqar or Kapil.

My point was that Teja has Waqar > Ambrose because of the higher peak Waqar had, whereas he has Kapil > Botham because he thinks Kapil's consistency is more valuable to the team than Botham's peak and trough.

They're basically the same comparison but he has different views

 

[Top_Cat]

My point was that Teja has Waqar > Ambrose because of the higher peak Waqar had, whereas he has Kapil > Botham because he thinks Kapil's consistency is more valuable to the team than Botham's peak and trough.

They're basically the same comparison but he has different views

 

[smash84]

Now people may understand why we say Botham ahead of Imran. To be fair that one is a tough call. Either could be picked but i'd go Botham.

Yes. But it is the same line of reasoning that puts Waqar ahead of all bowlers since his peak was so friggin awesome from 1989-1994. 6 wp, avg of 18 and SR of 30 odd.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Yes. But it is the same line of reasoning that puts Waqar ahead of all bowlers since his peak was so friggin awesome from 1989-1994. 6 wp, avg of 18 and SR of 30 odd.

Fair enough, I always say Waqar and Botham are similar. Brilliant early on, injury prone then picked on reputation for way too long which tarnishes the memory of their brilliance. Not their fault their selectors were clueless.

 

[keeper]

                   Tests   W  Ave  5w   Runs   Ave   50 100  

28/7/77 - 8/7/82      51 231 23.06 19   2833  38.80  10  11
29/7/82 - 10/1/87     38 135 34.25  8   1992  30.64  11   3
4/6/87  - 18/6/92     13  17 54.05  0    375  22.05   1   0
Career               102 383 28.40 27   5200  33.54  22  14

5 years as a legend, 5 years as a servicable cricketer who would occasionally produce an outstanding performance, and 13 Tests spread over 5 years where he was a joke cricketer.

Interesting stats.

If we take the classic definition of an all-rounder - one who could hold a place in the team on batting or bowling alone - then cricketing history shows this to be incredibly rare. It means by definition holding a simultaneous top six and top four batting and bowling positions. The fascination with Botham is that he managed to do this for fifty odd tests, quite an achievement. Not many can match this.

He was bedevilled by back injuries but couldn't adjust the way he played once his bowling declined. In his mid-eighties biography of Botham Don Mosey made the case that he should have forgotten about bowling and concentrated on being an orthodox middle order stroke player. He had the technique for it (he played very straight) but couldn't change the all out attack mindset that had carried him that far.

In a way (and not his fault) his legacy had a negative knock-on effect for English cricket in that he normalised the idea of last-ditch heroics and swashbuckling bravado as a substitute for proper training, preparation and planning.

 

[smash84]

It is interesting to note how many test matches Botham played in those 5 years when he was at his peak.

Would be interesting to see the figures for Kapil, Imran, and Hadlee.

One more reason why I think longevity deserves a lot more credit

 

[Jono]

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/2717919-post86.html

 

[Migara]

Interesting stats.

If we take the classic definition of an all-rounder - one who could hold a place in the team on batting or bowling alone - then cricketing history shows this to be incredibly rare. It means by definition holding a simultaneous top six and top four batting and bowling positions. The fascination with Botham is that he managed to do this for fifty odd tests, quite an achievement. Not many can match this.

Incidently Kapil managed to do this for 100 odd test matches.

 

[Teja.]

How does that resonate with Waqar vs. Ambrose

Exactly the point. When I said, 'I wouldn't', I meant I would consider both bats equal if circumstances are equal and not prefer the player with the higher peak, as most here are doing here and wouldn't do for Waqar, nor the player with the higher consistency.

That's why for both comparisons, the difference between the players is negligible for me and becomes a toss up.

Ftr, I did vote for Botham here too, so GAGFC.

That aside, when comparing to peers, Ambrose was the best or thereabouts for the majority of his career whereas I doubt anyone would say that about Waqar or Kapil.

Playing devil's advocate I'd argue that, considering Botham played on from 78-92(He played two games in 77 too), He was the best in the world or thereabouts for only four years, 78-81, after which he deteriorated significantly, others came up and certainly did not have a case to be the best in the world. Waqar too was the best in the world or thereabouts between 1990-1994, five years.

 

[Furball]

Exactly the point. When I said, 'I wouldn't', I meant I would consider both bats equal if circumstances are equal and not prefer the player with the higher peak, as most here are doing here and wouldn't do for Waqar, nor the player with the higher consistency.

That's why for both comparisons, the difference between the players is negligible for me and becomes a toss up.

Ftr, I did vote for Botham here too, so GAGFC.



Playing devil's advocate I'd argue that, considering Botham played on from 78-92(He played two games in 77 too), He was the best in the world or thereabouts for only four years, 78-81, after which he deteriorated significantly, others came up and certainly did not have a case to be the best in the world. Waqar too was the best in the world or thereabouts between 1990-1994, five years.

Botham's decline was mostly after 1987. Between 82 and 86 he was still averaging 30 with bat and ball - not too dissimilar to Kapil Dev. It's only in 87 that his performances fall off a cliff.

 

[Teja.]

Botham's decline was mostly after 1987. Between 82 and 86 he was still averaging 30 with bat and ball - not too dissimilar to Kapil Dev. It's only in 87 that his performances fall off a cliff.

Indeed, certainly. But averaging 30 with the bat and 30 with the ball was i)significant deterioration ii)not the best in the world or thereabouts though(Hadlee, Imran) which is the point I'm getting at.

Botham was freakishly mind-numbingly awesome between 77-81 and was merely very good between 82-86, not best in the world good.

 

[NasserFan207]

I went with too close to call, because like PEWS longevity is a massive factor for me

 

[Furball]

I went with too close to call, because like PEWS longevity is a massive factor for me

I'd say 10 years, 5 of which were at a level greater than any all rounder in the history of the game, and 5 of which were at a level similar to Kapil, is a pretty convincing case in Botham's favour. It's not like Botham did a Flintoff where he was very good for 3 years and complete crap for 8 years.

 

[NasserFan207]

I'd say 10 years, 5 of which were at a level greater than any all rounder in the history of the game, and 5 of which were at a level similar to Kapil, is a pretty convincing case in Botham's favour. It's not like Botham did a Flintoff where he was very good for 3 years and complete crap for 8 years.

I'd say he definitely wasn't at Kapil's level during the second 5 year period, he was very much a middling allrounder during that timeframe, and wasn't vital to the side anymore. I just think Kapil Dev doesn't get enough respect

I can't argue with the opinion that he might've been the most valuable cricketer ever during that first five year period

 

[Teja.]

I'd say 10 years, 5 of which were at a level greater than any all rounder in the history of the game, and 5 of which were at a level similar to Kapil, is a pretty convincing case in Botham's favour. It's not like Botham did a Flintoff where he was very good for 3 years and complete crap for 8 years.

Yeah, I'd pick Botham too.

Botham had 4 years of that peak ftr. Hard to count 77 considering he played 2 tests and didn't even have a good innings that year.

It's basically a four-year insane peak, five years of Kapil-level good-ness, four years of absolute crap vs 16 years of Kapil level performance, which is pretty darn good.

 

[Furball]

I'd say he definitely wasn't at Kapil's level during the second 5 year period, he was very much a middling allrounder during that timeframe, and wasn't vital to the side anymore. I just think Kapil Dev doesn't get enough respect

I can't argue with the opinion that he might've been the most valuable cricketer ever during that first five year period

Kapil was a wonderful cricketer but aside from an early burst in his career his bowling figures stayed amazingly consistent. 30 with both bat and ball, as Botham largely managed between 1982 and 1987, is roughly the same level that Kapil achieved after 1982.

 

[NasserFan207]

Kapil was a wonderful cricketer but aside from an early burst in his career his bowling figures stayed amazingly consistent. 30 with both bat and ball, as Botham largely managed between 1982 and 1987, is roughly the same level that Kapil achieved after 1982.

Nah sorry I disagree, Kapil has a better average there (sure its 2 or 3 %, but thats significant here) in both disciplines, and I just have massive respect for someone who is able to continue bowling at such a level for so long. I rate Courtney Walsh highly for similar reasons.

Kapil was an amazing workhorse imo, in today's game he'd be breaking records all over the place

 

[smash84]

plus Kapil seemed to lift his game against the WI