***Official*** New Zealand in Australia 2011

[BoyBrumby]

Scaly, you really do talk some absolute rubbish about NZ

Think that's today's "No ****, Sherlock" award wrapped up.

 

[Furball]

Think that's today's "No ****, Sherlock" award wrapped up.

Hmmm, I'd say there's some stiff competition.

I'm venturing into Captain Obvious territory here, but NZ need Taylor or Ryder to ton up to make sure they don't fall in an ugly heap tonight.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Hmmm, I'd say there's some stiff competition.

Don't speak with your mouth full, tubby. No one can hear you.

 

[hazsa19]

I agree with most of what Scaly says, especially the bit about Jonathan Davies.

But some of what you say is balls. The idea that Taylor will only make it as a finisher in odis is just as ridiculous as saying he could be great. He's a good player, he could be a very good Test player. He would easily slot into Englands middle order, or South Africas or Indias. Add a few to his average because he's not always batting in no-hope situations n all. He's not good enough to make NZ into a decent team single handed. But who is?

He'll always be part of a generally poor NZ team. They'll drag him down, just like Vettori, just like McCullum.

 

[Furball]

I agree with most of what Scaly says, especially the bit about Jonathan Davies.

But some of what you say is balls. The idea that Taylor will only make it as a finisher in odis is just as ridiculous as saying he could be great. He's a good player, he could be a very good Test player. He would easily slot into Englands middle order, or South Africas or Indias. Add a few to his average because he's not always batting in no-hope situations n all. He's not good enough to make NZ into a decent team single handed. But who is?

He'll always be part of a generally poor NZ team. They'll drag him down, just like Vettori, just like McCullum.

wat

 

[hazsa19]

wat

I'de be more than happy for Taylor to replace Morgan. Adequate replacement for Bell and KP if injury strikes, imo.

 

[Prince EWS]

wat

You have Morgan playing FFS. England have a very good batting lineup but any proven, decent Test middle order bat would walk into that side.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

You have Morgan playing FFS. England have a very good batting lineup but any proven, decent Test middle order bat would walk into that side.

Too right they would, only spot available at present though I am sure you would agree. Hopefully Taylor of the J variety will make will make it his own in the coming years.

 

[Prince EWS]

Too right they would, only spot available at present though I am sure you would agree..

Yeah, no doubt. England's second worst middle order batsman is Pietersen at the moment and that speaks volumes; there really aren't too many in the world I'd pick ahead of Pietersen.

 

[hazsa19]

Would Ian Bell average much more than 42 playing for NZ?

 

[Furball]

Fair call on Morgan, I keep forgetting about him because we've been a man down in the middle order for the last year anyway.

 

[Scaly piscine]

I agree with most of what Scaly says, especially the bit about Jonathan Davies.

But some of what you say is balls. The idea that Taylor will only make it as a finisher in odis is just as ridiculous as saying he could be great. He's a good player, he could be a very good Test player. He would easily slot into Englands middle order, or South Africas or Indias. Add a few to his average because he's not always batting in no-hope situations n all. He's not good enough to make NZ into a decent team single handed. But who is?

He'll always be part of a generally poor NZ team. They'll drag him down, just like Vettori, just like McCullum.

I didn't say Taylor will *only* make it as a finisher. I just ruled him out as being world class at any other role in the foreseeable future. He's a decent Test batsman, no more, no less. He would make those teams because they currently have a weakness in that spot. Taylor would be England's 7th best batsman behind Prior. May move up to 6th if Strauss continues to struggle. Similarly he'd be the weakest or 2nd weakest specialist bat in those other sides you mention. South Africa of late seem to have this peculiar mix of very good and ordinary players.

 

[hazsa19]

Saying every one of NZ's top 5 is potentially world class is like saying every player in professional cricket is potentially world class. There's nobody in NZ's top 5 who'd make someone take notice and go that guy's going to a be world class Test batsman. Even Kiwis take the piss out of Williamson's limitations. Ryder doesn't have the work ethic or brain to really learn. McCullum is a flat track bully and getting on a bit. Guptill hasn't shown anything really. Taylor could be a very good finisher in limited overs but his method of scoring isn't conducive to a good average in proper cricket. NZ have more potential for quality seam bowlers, particularly if they're among the few Kiwis who're playing in County Cricket next year.

You can see how this was misleading then?

 

[Scaly piscine]

A decent average means you're still 'making it', in most people's eyes.

40 or just over is a decent Test average, it just isn't a good one.

 

[SteveNZ]

Did you just try to use the fact that everyone says it's important to discredit the claim that it's overrated?

I said speak to an international cricketer, speak to someone who has played it and see what they say about experience. I know what the answer would be. Fail to see where you got the humour from there.

 

[SteveNZ]

Saying every one of NZ's top 5 is potentially world class is like saying every player in professional cricket is potentially world class. There's nobody in NZ's top 5 who'd make someone take notice and go that guy's going to a be world class Test batsman. Even Kiwis take the piss out of Williamson's limitations. Ryder doesn't have the work ethic or brain to really learn. McCullum is a flat track bully and getting on a bit. Guptill hasn't shown anything really. Taylor could be a very good finisher in limited overs but his method of scoring isn't conducive to a good average in proper cricket. NZ have more potential for quality seam bowlers, particularly if they're among the few Kiwis who're playing in County Cricket next year.

Players will generally boost their average playing against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, but not usually to the extent where they average 24 against them and 37 against everyone else. 37 is a painfully bad bowling average. Martin's record is good against SA, decent against Sri Lanka and rubbish or worse against every other team. In summary he's ****e.

Um...no it isn't like saying every professional cricketer is world class. At all. Taylor/Ryder/McCullum especially are far more talented than most of their peers. You don't call them world class because they, for whatever reason, haven't applied those talents consistently enough. But every single one of them has played innings/series where they were truly world class. They are capable of it.

All those descriptions show you aren't all that clued up about NZ cricket. Stick to what you know.

 

[Uppercut]

It's just funny that you used "but most people disagree with you!" as an argument against the claim that someone was overrated. Of course most people disagree. That's the point. It's why you say "overrated" and not just "bad".

 

[Prince EWS]

It's just funny that you used "but most people disagree with you!" as an argument against the claim that someone was overrated. Of course most people disagree. That's the point. It's why you say "overrated" and not just "bad".

Yeah, it's one of those funny situations where if everyone agreed with him he'd actually be wrong.

 

[Flem274*]

Being a debutant just makes someone rather an unknown quantity. It doesn't automatically make them crap until they've got 20-30 caps. Experience is severely over-rated.

You seriously think experience doesn't count for much?

I think you're getting a bit above your station here. New Zealand just scraped past Zimbabwe ffs. An average of 40 gets you dropped in England, India, Australia and South Africa (unless you're part of the quota).

That would be why England dropped Eoin Morgan then, and why Australia have dropped Hughes.

An average of 40 is about what these New Zealand batsmen will manage against Test class opposition and that's on the optimistic side.

Ross Taylor against non minnows and not SA (who he played two tests against while he was **** at the start): 44.78.

Brendon McCullum opening (minnows excluded): 54.10

Jesse Ryder (minnows excluded): 41.92

You have Jonathan Davies Complex (rabid Welsh rugby union fan/player). When the players are doing well and getting away with mistakes or making few of them then you think that's their 'normal' level - which makes them world class. When they don't get away with mistakes it's just as if they've played extremely badly, given it away etc.

/scaly

So the perspective is one of a really top side who's just throwing it away 99% of the time. Not one of an average side who plays really well 1% of the time.

/scaly

I'm not calling us a top side. I'm calling the batsmen out on collapsing to a very raw Australian pace attack.

New Zealand's best batsman are all Russian Roulette players. They're good but nowhere near great. You're hanging your hat on guys who average a fraction over 40 with the bat, 35-40 with the ball and you're still automatically picking a nigh on 37yo bowler who averages 35 (boosted by Bangladesh), is the worst batsman in international cricket yet was named your Cricket of the Year.

What does the bowling have to do with anything? I've said it was crap. Aim your hyperbole better Scaly my man.

England could pick an XI of guys with 10 or less caps and it would still outclass NZ. So could India. And Australia could pick the bulk of a team that would do so.

The same India who the aforementioned 37 year old blasted out? India's first XI will beat us, and they did (eventually) but a second XI wouldn't. The bowling would be their achilles heel.

I am fully aware nothing will change your opinion of New Zealand, but I thought your post was worth a reply.

 

[Flem274*]

New Zealand 500/3 dec at the close of play. You heard it here first.