Why is Lillee rated above Imran?

[smash84]

@ bold part : there in lies the flaw in your argument .... I'm referring to the pitches in those Pak-WI encounters only ......not overall .....

Strong bowling line ups of course were a part of it, but so were the pitches in those matches. Why does it have to be either ???? Seriously ??

This is the performances of the batting sides vs the WI in that period:

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Pak averaged the least vs WI , 23.53

This is the overall performance of the sides in that period:

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Pak are the second highest with an average 34.71

Why did WI bowlers have their best performance ( statistically ) vs the the 2nd best batting side ( statistically ) in that time-period ?

So Pakistan only managed to produce bowling paradises when the WI arrived? When Pak could bowl out the best batting unit of the era so cheaply on bowling paradises why didn't they produce them against other teams?

 

[abmk]

So Pakistan only managed to produce bowling paradises when the WI arrived? When Pak could bowl out the best batting unit of the era so cheaply on bowling paradises why didn't they produce them against other teams?

Well I'm not really sure ...

Maybe, just maybe and this is just a theory, they thought they'd get out to the WI bowlers anyways and decided to give their bowlers more of a chance

 

[abmk]

Also in that time period , WI batsmen averaged the least vs the Pak bowling attack ... Australia, England, India and even NZ & SL did better statistically

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

WI averaged ~24

Contrast to

Aus: 35
Eng: 29
Ind: 35.5
NZ: 29
SL : 25.5

Of course WI still had the best record vs them courtesy their bowling.

But was the WI batting really that bad ? Course not ! It had to do with the pitches as well ...

Combine this with :

@ bold part : there in lies the flaw in your argument .... I'm referring to the pitches in those Pak-WI encounters only ......not overall .....

Strong bowling line ups of course were a part of it, but so were the pitches in those matches. Why does it have to be either ???? Seriously ??

This is the performances of the batting sides vs the WI in that period:

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Pak averaged the least vs WI , 23.53

This is the overall performance of the sides in that period:

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Pak are the second highest with an average 34.71

Why did WI bowlers have their best performance ( statistically ) vs the the 2nd best batting side ( statistically ) in that time-period ?

You have definite statistical proof for the pitches being more bowler-friendly than usual in the Pak-WI matches in that time-frame

 

[smash84]

Well I'm not really sure ...

Maybe, just maybe and this is just a theory, they thought they'd get out to the WI bowlers anyways and decided to give their bowlers more of a chance

This theory sounds just a teeny weeny bit OTT to me

 

[abmk]

This theory sounds just a teeny weeny bit OTT to me

may be, but seems plausible to me. ( again, I'm not really sure whether that was indeed the case )

Let me put it in another way :

Pak batsmen would probably struggle vs WI regardless of the pitch . The no of runs they could score more on the flatter pitches would be pretty less compared to the no of runs WI could score on the flatter pitches vs the Pak bowling ....

 

[ankitj]

it's a really faulty way of looking at things though. It makes it impossible to actually bowl really well on a pitch considered flat because the moment you actually do so and dismiss a team for under 300, the pitch isn't considered flat anymore.

+1

 

[ankitj]

 

[abmk]

^^

If that was in reference to what I said regarding the pitches in Pak-WI matches being more bowler-friendly than usual , care to refute what I said in post #123 ? How is that even close to circular reasoning ?

 

[smash84]

This never fails to crack me up

 

[smash84]

Let me put it in another way :

Pak batsmen would probably struggle vs WI regardless of the pitch . The no of runs they could score more on the flatter pitches would be pretty less compared to the no of runs WI could score on the flatter pitches vs the Pak bowling ....

The Pakistan bowlers were more adept at bowling on flat pitches compared to their WI counterparts. Why would they want to prepare bowler friendly pitches for the WI to play to their strength?

 

[abmk]

The Pakistan bowlers were more adept at bowling on flat pitches compared to their WI counterparts. Why would they want to prepare bowler friendly pitches for the WI to play to their strength?

were they ? On a track that had some assistance for spinners and very little for the pacers, maybe .... But on a track that had little assistance for both, I might take WI bowling ....

Again, like I said, I'm not exactly sure why .... but the pitches in those Pak-WI matches were more bowler friendly than usual. The reports say that and the stats as I showed in post #123 back that up ...

 

[smash84]

were they ? On a track that had some assistance for spinners and very little for the pacers, maybe .... But on a track that had little assistance for both, I might take WI bowling ....

Again, like I said, I'm not exactly sure why .... but the pitches in those Pak-WI matches were more bowler friendly than usual. The reports say that and the stats as I showed in post #123 back that up ...

The stats don't tell much about the pitches to me.

It is like PEWS mention. The moment you bowl well and bowl somebody out for less than 300 you say that the pitch is not flat.

How many times in the last 50 years has Pakistan produced really bowler friendly pitches?

Not too many that stick out in my mind (and I have been watching cricket since the 80s)

 

[abmk]

The stats don't tell much about the pitches to me.

It is like PEWS mention. The moment you bowl well and bowl somebody out for less than 300 you say that the pitch is not flat.

How many times in the last 50 years has Pakistan produced really bowler friendly pitches?

Not too many that stick out in my mind (and I have been watching cricket since the 80s)

don't think you looked at the stats properly.....

Check again ...

Ok, lets assume for a moment that the lower batting averages are because of the good quality bowlers on both sides ...

But explain why the same set of bowlers did worse vs the other teams ?

WI bowlers had their 2nd best performance statistically vs Pak. Surely the Pak batsmen were better than that ?

Pak bowlers had their best performance statistically vs WI . Surely the WI batsmen were better than that !?

Why did the above 2 happen ?

 

[Shri]

**** happens.

 

[vic_orthdox]

I've spoken before about it, but in general a guy is rated better if he bursts onto the scene. He's seen as a threat and a great player for longer, than someone who slowly gets better and better, and ends up having a similar career. In some ways, it's deserved - he's been the targeted/top man for longer - but it also does disservice to the guy who builds himself into a great player.

Imran suffers from it in comparison to a Lillee.

 

[Burgey]

don't think you looked at the stats properly.....

Check again ...

Ok, lets assume for a moment that the lower batting averages are because of the good quality bowlers on both sides ...

But explain why the same set of bowlers did worse vs the other teams ?

WI bowlers had their 2nd best performance statistically vs Pak. Surely the Pak batsmen were better than that ?

Pak bowlers had their best performance statistically vs WI . Surely the WI batsmen were better than that !?

Why did the above 2 happen ?

Bottle tops?

 

[smash84]

 

[Ikki]

abmk's argument is a solid one based on the stats. There is a marked difference in averages. But it is theoritical somewhat. Who watched the series and do his assertions ring true? SJS to chime in would be lovely.

All that aside though, Imran's record against one of the greatest sides of all time is still absolutely brilliant.

 

[Sanz]

Against the best team of his era Imran Khan averaged 21.18, Lillee averaged 27.78, that is a remarkable difference and statistically totally separates Imran from Lillee. In the matches against WI when their best bowler (MD Marshall) played , Imran is again statistically better than arguably the greatest bowler ever.

So to those who are saying that Lillee is better than Imran Statistically, you are simply making stuff up because Lillee's stats are just incomplete in comparison to Imran. Imran is simply better, There is no comparison, Statistically.

As for my preference, (where Stats are not the main criteria), I really don't know which one to pick on one single day, I do know that on most days I would pick Lillee but somedays I might just pick Imran.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

I really like the idea of Lillee. Aggressive, passionate and in your face kind of bowler.Would loved to have seen him bowl live.