Why is Lillee rated above Imran?

[Jono]

Forget bowler, Lillee would have been the better allrounder if he were allowed to use his aluminium bat.

 

[subshakerz]

Against the best team of his era Imran Khan averaged 21.18, Lillee averaged 27.78, that is a remarkable difference and statistically totally separates Imran from Lillee. In the matches against WI when their best bowler (MD Marshall) played , Imran is again statistically better than arguably the greatest bowler ever.

So to those who are saying that Lillee is better than Imran Statistically, you are simply making stuff up because Lillee's stats are just incomplete in comparison to Imran. Imran is simply better, There is no comparison, Statistically.

As for my preference, (where Stats are not the main criteria), I really don't know which one to pick on one single day, I do know that on most days I would pick Lillee but somedays I might just pick Imran.

Exactly, Lillee fans should just admit that stats simply are not on their side when favoring him vs. Imran. I restate, how can you statistically favor a bowler who played only 5 games outside of Aus, NZ and England to someone who experienced success virtually everywhere?

I say the same to Wasim fans who use stats to favor him against Imran. That simply is factually not the way to go.

 

[Furball]

Exactly, Lillee fans should just admit that stats simply are not on their side when favoring him vs. Imran. I restate, how can you statistically favor a bowler who played only 5 games outside of Aus, NZ and England to someone who experienced success virtually everywhere?

I say the same to Wasim fans who use stats to favor him against Imran. That simply is factually not the way to go.

Because it's not relevant.

 

[Sanz]

Because it's not relevant.

If you are going to use statistics as your major criteria, then it is relevant.

 

[subshakerz]

Because it's not relevant.

Of course, stats are never relevant when they are inconvenient.

 

[Furball]

Remind me what Imran's record in South Africa is like again.w

 

[subshakerz]

Remind me what Imran's record in South Africa is like again.w

About as good as Lillee's.

 

[Sanz]

Remind me what Imran's record in South Africa is like again.w

Remind me what was SA's status as a Test Playing Nation during Imran and Lillee's careers ?

 

[LongHopCassidy]

Remind me what was SA's status as a Test Playing Nation during Imran and Lillee's careers ?

 

[bagapath]

it is an undisputed fact that imran was as awesome a fast bowler as lillee ever was, or any other bowler for that matter, for the majority of his career. in fact, his rout of a strong indian batting line-up in the '82 home series must be among the top 3 bowling performances of all time. it is probably the greatest bowling show ever test crricket has witnessed over a whole series.

it is not possible to find fault in his stats, especially when comparing him with lillee who has more gaping holes in his resume. it is alright to choose one over the other using any other critteria. but if it is statistics one has to rely on then it will be impossible to put lillee above imran so easily.

 

[Ikki]

Against the best team of his era Imran Khan averaged 21.18, Lillee averaged 27.78, that is a remarkable difference and statistically totally separates Imran from Lillee. In the matches against WI when their best bowler (MD Marshall) played , Imran is again statistically better than arguably the greatest bowler ever.

So to those who are saying that Lillee is better than Imran Statistically, you are simply making stuff up because Lillee's stats are just incomplete in comparison to Imran. Imran is simply better, There is no comparison, Statistically.

As for my preference, (where Stats are not the main criteria), I really don't know which one to pick on one single day, I do know that on most days I would pick Lillee but somedays I might just pick Imran.

Lillee was the best bowler in WSC and also decimated the World XI earlier in his career featuring much better line-ups than the WI you use to compare in the above. With regards to bowling against the best/greats, I'd give it to Lillee.

Imran does have a better record in the SC but he didn't face his own team at home and SL is a non-issue - I don't think anyone really doubts Lillee would have succeeded against them (maybe a question as to whether he'd do as well as Imran is more legitimate). Both were good against India.

As I showed before, when you look at Imran closer his average flatters him a tad. Not that it is very high, just a tad higher than you'd expect. It would be less of an issue if his SR was really low, but that also isn't. Great fast bowlers tend to strike in the low 50s or even lower. Imran only did that against two teams: WI and SL. They're also the only teams he averages less than 24 against. Away from home, that trend is exasperated.

Lillee's problem re his record not being complete is a lack of games in the SC. Not anything that would suggest his ability is less than Imran's. That's why all and sundry - including Imran himself - rated Lillee the best.

 

[smash84]

Lillee was the best bowler in WSC and also decimated the World XI earlier in his career featuring much better line-ups than the WI you use to compare in the above. With regards to bowling against the best/greats, I'd give it to Lillee. Both were good against India.

How come? Given that Imran has better stats in both WSC and against the WI.

 

[Ikki]

How come? Given that Imran has better stats in both WSC and against the WI.

Imran played for the World XI against Australia's XI - which were a good side but not even near as talented as the World XI side Lillee had to face. Imran bowled to McCosker, The Chappels, Laid, Marsh, Langer, Hookes, Wessels, etc, and Lillee bowled to Fredericks, Richards, Greenidge, Richards (Barry), Lloyd, Amiss, Zaheer Abbas, Miandad, Rice, Greig, Knott, etc. Not even close. AFAIK Imran only played 1 test (of his 5) against the WSC WIndies team. His record in the WSC is not better than Lillee's.

As I also mentioned before, Lillee played a World XI career in his series where he obliterated some of the greatest batsmen ever assembled (Sobers, Gavaskar, Pollock, Zaheer Abbas, Kanhai, Lloyd). His 8/29 is legendary and there are videos of it online. Against the best, it's clearly Lillee.

 

[hang on]

Imran played for the World XI against Australia's XI - which were a good side but not even near as talented as the World XI side Lillee had to face. Imran bowled to McCosker, The Chappels, Laid, Marsh, Langer, Hookes, Wessels, etc, and Lillee bowled to Fredericks, Richards, Greenidge, Richards (Barry), Lloyd, Amiss, Zaheer Abbas, Miandad, Rice, Greig, Knott, etc. Not even close. AFAIK Imran only played 1 test (of his 5) against the WSC WIndies team. His record in the WSC is not better than Lillee's.

As I also mentioned before, Lillee played a World XI career in his series where he obliterated some of the greatest batsmen ever assembled (Sobers, Gavaskar, Pollock, Zaheer Abbas, Kanhai, Lloyd). His 8/29 is legendary and there are videos of it online. Against the best, it's clearly Lillee.

really? strange, given that imran has the better record against the best team (batting wise, too...the windies, i mean, not imran) of his era - the windies.

also, regarding the 1971 world 11 vs aus series, 'some of the greatest batsmen ever assembled' is overegging it given that gavaskar and abbas were rather new to the scene, and lloyd was certainly not the batsman he was to become. only sobers and kanhai were in their prime, albeit towards the later part of it.

 

[smash84]

Imran played for the World XI against Australia's XI - which were a good side but not even near as talented as the World XI side Lillee had to face. Imran bowled to McCosker, The Chappels, Laid, Marsh, Langer, Hookes, Wessels, etc, and Lillee bowled to Fredericks, Richards, Greenidge, Richards (Barry), Lloyd, Amiss, Zaheer Abbas, Miandad, Rice, Greig, Knott, etc. Not even close. AFAIK Imran only played 1 test (of his 5) against the WSC WIndies team. His record in the WSC is not better than Lillee's.

As I also mentioned before, Lillee played a World XI career in his series where he obliterated some of the greatest batsmen ever assembled (Sobers, Gavaskar, Pollock, Zaheer Abbas, Kanhai, Lloyd). His 8/29 is legendary and there are videos of it online. Against the best, it's clearly Lillee.

but Imran did much better against the WI in INTERNATIONAL matches.

Also Imran played only played 5 matches in WSC but he did very well. Can't say he would not have done even better had he played more. As things stand his record in WSC, based on stats alone is better than Lillee's.

However both played the WI i.e. the best team of their eras and Imran's record is noticeably better. So how is Lillee's record better against the best? It would be like saying that Wasim was a better LO bowler than McGrath because Wasim happened to be better in IPL

 

[subshakerz]

Lillee was the best bowler in WSC and also decimated the World XI earlier in his career featuring much better line-ups than the WI you use to compare in the above. With regards to bowling against the best/greats, I'd give it to Lillee. Both were good against India.

Lillee was great in the WSC, decent against the WI at home and had one flunk test against the WI away. Imran had even better stats in the WSC, spectacular against the WI at home and impressive against WI away. So who has the better record against the best/greats?

Imran does have a better record in the SC but he didn't face his own team at home and SL is a non-issue - I don't think anyone really doubts Lillee would have succeeded against them (maybe a question as to whether he'd do as well as Imran is more legitimate).

Who cares if he didnt face his own team at home? He faced stronger batting lineups in WI and India and tore them apart. He also has one good series (79/80) in India to boot and of course did well in Sri Lanka. Lillee, all he has is 4 substandard tests in the subcontinent. It's an established fact that the subcontient is a unique test for fast bowlers, Imran gets points here while Lillee is at best a questionmark if we ignore his poor few showings.

As I showed before, when you look at Imran closer his average flatters him a tad. Not that it is very high, just a tad higher than you'd expect. It would be less of an issue if his SR was really low, but that also isn't. Great fast bowlers tend to strike in the low 50s or even lower. Imran only did that against two teams: WI and SL. They're also the only teams he averages less than 24 against. Away from home, that trend is exasperated.

It's a pretty superficial reading of his stats though and you know it. Before 75-76, he was hardly a test class cricketer, and after 88, he was only in the team for his batting and captaincy, while his bowling was a part-time help. If you compare his full specialist bowling career from 75-88 with Lillee's from 71-84, there's no comparison really. But even the overall career of Imran shows that he averaged < 25 against all teams except NZ, and he has a better average that Lillee, and far better stats against the best opposition, and more success in different conditions.

Lillee's problem re his record not being complete is a lack of games in the SC. Not anything that would suggest his ability is less than Imran's. That's why all and sundry - including Imran himself - rated Lillee the best.

Lillee's problem is lack of tests outside NZ, England and Australia. Just five tests is simply not enough to grant him a title of 'complete bowler'.

In terms of bowling ability, I would point to his lack of a good yorker and diffculty dismissing tailenders as two points he suffers compared to Imran.

 

[Ikki]

really? strange, given that imran has the better record against the best batting team of his era - the windies.

I know, I even praised him for it. But how does that argue against the point I just made?

also, 'greatest batsmen ever assembled' is overegging it given that gavaskar, zaheer were rather new to the scene.

Er, so was Lillee. All 3 had burst onto the scene early in their careers. Hence the other two being in the World XI. I take your point; there is a bit of hindsight going there; regardless, it's still an awesome line-up and to take 8-29 (12-92 for the match) is ridiculous.

 

[hang on]

but Imran did much better against the WI in INTERNATIONAL matches.

Also Imran played only played 5 matches in WSC but he did very well. Can't say he would not have done even better had he played more. As things stand his record in WSC, based on stats alone is better than Lillee's.

However both played the WI i.e. the best team of their eras and Imran's record is noticeably better. So how is Lillee's record better against the best? It would be like saying that Wasim was a better LO bowler than McGrath because Wasim happened to be better in IPL

yep. it's not his fault that he didn't play that many matches in the wsc. by that token, lillee's travails on his travels in the subcontinent should not be discounted by virtue of being a small sample set. goose, gander....

 

[hang on]

I know, I even praised him for it. But how does that argue against the point I just made?



Er, so was Lillee. All 3 had burst onto the scene early in their careers. Hence the other two being in the World XI. I take your point; there is a bit of hindsight going there; regardless, it's still an awesome line-up and to take 8-29 (12-92 for the match) is ridiculous.

my point was addressing your statement that lillee was the best against the best. the part i bolded in my previous post. apologies for not quoting verbatim in this post. bit rushed. when imran had clearly the better bowling record over many matches against the best team of his era, it is silly to say that lillee was the best against the best.

 

[Ikki]

Lillee was great in the WSC, decent against the WI at home and had one flunk test against the WI away. Imran had even better stats in the WSC, spectacular against the WI at home and impressive against WI away. Lillee only had one series against India at home where he did well, Imran had success against them both home and away. So who has the better record against the best/greats?

Since nothing you just posted was different to what I did; then of course Lillee.

Who cares if he didnt face his own team at home? He faced stronger batting lineups in WI and India and tore them apart. He also has one good series (79/80) in India to boot and of course did well in Sri Lanka. Lillee, all he has is 4 substandard tests in the subcontinent. It's an established fact that the subcontient is a unique test for fast bowlers, Imran gets points here while Lillee is at best a questionmark if we ignore his poor few showings.

Erm, if Pak in Pak is the graveyard that people talk as a the gauge of the greatest fast bowler ever then Imran not facing them is a point to "care" about.

Lillee also faced stronger line-ups and succeeded against them, so why does that always get ignored for him? Haha, what a double standard.

Lillee has 4 innings against Pak and 1 Test against SL. His series in India as you iterated before was very good. So the difference between them is SL and for anyone to hold that against him is just straw clutching. I can take the argument re Pak but unfortunately he just didn't tour them enough and 4 innings is not a reliable sample of anything. Also, as you said, , Lillee faced and did better against better line-ups than Pak .

It's a pretty superficial reading of his stats though and you know it. Before 75-76, he was hardly a test class cricketer, and after 88, he was only in the team for his batting and captaincy, while his bowling was a part-time help. If you compare his full specialist bowling career from 75-88 with Lillee's from 71-84, there's no comparison really. But even the overall career of Imran shows that he averaged < 25 against all teams except NZ, and he has a better average that Lillee, and far better stats against the best opposition, and more success in different conditions.

I know all that, and I repeatedly point it out to people when they tend to take Imran out of the equation altogether. In the 80s, he was as good, if not better than even Marshall and Hadlee. Unfortunately, people tend to rate you less and don't take into account certain caveats.

What's ironic is that you mention that for Imran when on these boards the superficial reading is in Lillee's career. Lillee was great from start to finish - unlike Imran. As a tearaway, as the methodical bowler, as a lone wolf or a pack hunter. He was the best against the best and still great against the rest. What people hold against him is a total of 6 innings across 2 countries. It is despicable.

Lillee's problem is lack of tests outside NZ, England and Australia. Just five tests is simply not enough to grant him a title of 'complete bowler'.

In terms of bowling ability, I would point to his lack of a good yorker and diffculty dismissing tailenders as two points he suffers compared to Imran.

Yet all, even players from those countries where he didn't tour enough, regarded him as the best at the time. Which says a lot about the SC at the time. Lillee didn't tour Pak enough and that is unfortunate but people know of his ability and don't consider it so open-ended as you like to see. Holding his 2 innings in SL against him is laughable. In India, he was great. So it is only that Pak record that is a legitimate complaint.

The thing is though, you don't have to have a complete record to be the best. Otherwise Alan Davidson > Hadlee, Lillee, Ambrose, McGrath, et al. It doesn't work like that. So, we're not all superficial, aye?