Australia - where to from here

[wellAlbidarned]

Nah, Lyon's going to actually play **** to get dropped. He doesn't sweat stuff that makes everyone hate him like Hauritz seemed to.

 

[adub]

i would say lyon, thanks for giving it your all, you certainly didn't disgrace yourself, we are going to give o'keefe a game, because he offers more as a batsman and a bowler at this stage of your respective careers; go back to south australia and help their struggling attack.

Also, no hard feelings mate, here have sok's t20 spot, good luck and happy birthday.

100%

 

[stephen]

Totally agree Adub. You can't correct a personnel mistake without a change in personnel. Hauritz should be seen as the #1 spinner in the country followed by O'Keefe. Pick the #1 spinner. It's not rocket science.

 

[adub]

We'll see on Haurie if he ever actually gets back on the field.

 

[howardj]

I will say I don't mind Lyon's work at all. BUT, his selection over O'Keefe was a massive crock of ****. To say O'Keefe's sample size is small is ridiculous when it's being compared to a guy who was selected on the back of 3 fc games and a 45 average. It's just utter, utter bull****. To say O'Keefe hasn't had a good start to this season is equal bull****. His record in the three games he's played this season smashes the three games Lyon was selected on, or Beer's record, or Doherty's. He just took a great 4-fer and backed it up with a run a ball 80 to almost win a game his side had blown. None, not one single one of O'Keefe's competition have ever produced a performance to compare. It's hardly the first time SOK has done it though. He took 4-fer despite being way underbowled and backed it up with a 66 in Aus A v England, a 4/87 and 91 against SA, 7/35 and 61 for Aus A against SL A. So he doesn't have many games under his belt, yet he's already turned in four performances of 4+ wickets and a 50 in the same match. Like I said absolutely no other potential spinner comes within a bulls roar of these performances. Added to that the fact his average and s/r is miles and miles in front of any other spinner. It's about time people stopped trying to come up with reasons for why SOK's figures are so much better than everyone else that don't involve the possibility that it's because he's the best spinner in the country.

The fact he did not get a go in the test team is indefensible. So the question we are forced to confront is are we forced to continue to with a mistake? Now like I said I think Lyon is doing ok. But is he our best spin option? Firstly I don't think you can put too much credit on his debut 5-fer. The pitch had a huge amount of say in that. It was no more an indication of a great future spin bowler than Clarke's 6/9. Since then he's been tidy, and you have to love his shape, but he's not THAT good that his position shouldn't be looked at. So as solid as Lyon has gone, I truly believe the test side would be noticeably strengthened by replacing him with O'Keefe. It would also be justice. Lyon, if he's as good as I reckon he could one day be will go back to the Shield and perform. If SOK doesn't then he can be in the box seat to take the spot back. But today and coming into this summer O'Keefe is our best option. It's a crime that he hasn't had at least 5 tests already under his belt (if not 10), but there's no reason to keep making the same mistake. Putting the guy who should have been selected three spinner's ago is not continuing the round about, it's fixing the problem that has created the round about in the first place.

Man that's good

 

[Top_Cat]

It's too late to replace Lyon with O'Keefe now. Since being picked, regardless of the reasons, he's done about as much as can be expected of him. I thought O'Keefe should have been given a go by now and he certainly wouldn't disgrace himself with ball, bat or in the field, obviously has leadership qualities, etc. But, for now, Lyon's it and is doing enough to suggest he deserves a solid run. Not withstanding that teams and squads are just as much a function of personalities and balance as form so there's a lot in that area we couldn't possibly know about. That O'Keefe got such a stern public rebuke for doing little more than questioning why he missed on selection makes me wonder whether there's context we're missing and/or whether he's just rubbed someone up the wrong way.

Aside form all that, Lyon just looks like he has more about him with the ball than O'Keefe does. For all of O'Keefe's other qualities, that's the one that'll decide selection in an Aussie team. Aussie selectors have never made a habit of picking bits-and-pieces spinners and, with the clamour for specialists of late, I can't see that changing now.

All that said, it would be nice if Lyon took some poles for SA, the recent shield match where NSW were saved by the rain was as good an opportunity as you'd get to impress. Adelaide isn't flat for all 4 days, Nathan!

(wet day, in fairness)

 

[robelinda]

Its only bloody amazing we have picked Lyon and Cummins out of the freaking blue and they have done well. I mean really, if it weren't for 20/20 neither Lyon or Cummins would be near a FC team.

 

[outbreak]

My side for the next test series would be

Watson
Hughes
Marsh
Khawaja (depending on if ponting carries on or not tonight)
Clarke
Hussey
Wade
Copeland
Harris
Lyon
Cummins

I agree 110% O'keefe should have been picked before Beer and Lyon. O'keefes a much better bowler and a MUCH better batsman, hell i liked O'keefe better for the position we needed fille then Smith when we kept choosing him. But Now we've gone with Lyon we're stuck with him for awhile. I don't think he's a bad bowler just the way australia use their spinners he doesn't really fit the defensive role.

 

[adub]

It's too late to replace Lyon with O'Keefe now. Since being picked, regardless of the reasons, he's done about as much as can be expected of him. I thought O'Keefe should have been given a go by now and he certainly wouldn't disgrace himself with ball, bat or in the field, obviously has leadership qualities, etc. But, for now, Lyon's it and is doing enough to suggest he deserves a solid run. Not withstanding that teams and squads are just as much a function of personalities and balance as form so there's a lot in that area we couldn't possibly know about. That O'Keefe got such a stern public rebuke for doing little more than questioning why he missed on selection makes me wonder whether there's context we're missing and/or whether he's just rubbed someone up the wrong way.

Aside form all that, Lyon just looks like he has more about him with the ball than O'Keefe does. For all of O'Keefe's other qualities, that's the one that'll decide selection in an Aussie team. Aussie selectors have never made a habit of picking bits-and-pieces spinners and, with the clamour for specialists of late, I can't see that changing now.

All that said, it would be nice if Lyon took some poles for SA, the recent shield match where NSW were saved by the rain was as good an opportunity as you'd get to impress. Adelaide isn't flat for all 4 days, Nathan!

(wet day, in fairness)

So because a guy who most agree shouldn't have been picked was picked and has turned out to be not a complete gumby we can't say we've got a better option? That's the kind of thinking that keeps Peter Siddle in the test side. We will always be mediocre if we accept mediocrity. Like I said I don't have anything against Lyon, but for all the "oh he looks so much better" stuff we have to at least consider that it's possible that SOK has so many more wickets at so much a lower average is because (despite maybe not looking it to expert eyes) he is actually just a better bowler. Added to the fact (and I'd suggest it's pretty indisputable) he's a significantly better batsman and fielder it should be a no brainer.

Calling a finger spinner with a fc average of 25 a bits-and-pieces spinner shows utter contempt for just how hard that is to achieve. In Australia a finger spinner with numbers like SOK is virtually unheard of. Mallett was the last guy with similar numbers (almost identical ave, s/r and econ actually), then you've got to go back to Ian Johnson, and before the war Charlie McCartney or even further back to Trumble and Palmer. Half a dozen guys in 130 years. That's how rare a finger spinner with O'Keefe's record is in Australia. He seems to get dissed because he can actually hold a bat and a catch. I sometimes wonder if he fielded and batted like Jim Higgs if he wouldn't get a bit more cred for what he does with the ball. After all just about every other gumby who has rolled their arm over and a 45+ average has a baggy green.

I said even before his Aus A game against England he was someone to watch, and then after that game it should have been obvious he should have got the job in front of Doherty. People were saying then the same stuff - small sample, bits-and-pieces, so he comes out and blitzes every other spinner in the shield - most wickets, best s/r, lowest average, and still Beer and Lyon with nothing to go on but Warne's name check and big bash wickets get test selection in front of him. Same **** again this year - misses the first game because he's playing t20 (now that really should be Lyon's gig) so it's 'slow start to the season' then he comes out in his third game and almost pulls off a virtual single handed victory. He just keeps performing.

So yeah there must be something we're missing. I have heard a rumour around the net about him being ****y and a bit of a party boy and maybe not the hardest trainer. But that kinda gets made a mockery of by NSW picking him to be Captain. And anyway when did that become a crime - Shane Warne anyone? The simple point is this - pick the best players. That means cutting dudes who may be doing ok for guys who will do better. I know it seems a pretty radical idea based on the acceptance of mediocrity without negative consequences from some of our test team for a long time, but who knows it just might work.

 

[adub]

All that said, it would be nice if Lyon took some poles for SA, the recent shield match where NSW were saved by the rain was as good an opportunity as you'd get to impress. Adelaide isn't flat for all 4 days, Nathan!

(wet day, in fairness)

Sure you aren't confusing the Bankstown game where rain almost definitely saved SA due to losing two sessions worth of play. Adelaide was fine and we were cruising at 5/400 when it was called after 354 overs of play in the match.

 

[Top_Cat]

So because a guy who most agree shouldn't have been picked was picked and has turned out to be not a complete gumby we can't say we've got a better option?

I don't know where you're getting that most agree Lyon shouldn't have been picked.

Calling a finger spinner with a fc average of 25 a bits-and-pieces spinner shows utter contempt for just how hard that is to achieve. In Australia a finger spinner with numbers like SOK is virtually unheard of. Mallett was the last guy with similar numbers (almost identical ave, s/r and econ actually), then you've got to go back to Ian Johnson, and before the war Charlie McCartney or even further back to Trumble and Palmer. Half a dozen guys in 130 years. That's how rare a finger spinner with O'Keefe's record is in Australia. He seems to get dissed because he can actually hold a bat and a catch. I sometimes wonder if he fielded and batted like Jim Higgs if he wouldn't get a bit more cred for what he does with the ball. After all just about every other gumby who has rolled their arm over and a 45+ average has a baggy green.

The average masks other parts of his game which are missing, though. He's clearly the number 2 when Hauritz is in the side and, despite the 1 5-fer, takes about 3 per match. Lyon's selection had less going for it statistically but, well, it's fairly clear to me who the more skilled operator is and will be in the future.

I'm not bagging O'Keefe, as I said he's a great contributor to any team in all 3 disciplines. But at Test level, it's a fair question whether he'll take regular wickets and that's what he'll be judged on.

So yeah there must be something we're missing. I have heard a rumour around the net about him being ****y and a bit of a party boy and maybe not the hardest trainer. But that kinda gets made a mockery of by NSW picking him to be Captain. And anyway when did that become a crime - Shane Warne anyone?

It's a little bit different when you're one of the greatest spinners the world has ever seen vs O'Keefe. Longer leash is warranted.

Not to mention, Warne was a hard trainer. Could complain about his discipline and habits outside of the game but he made sure noone could question his cricket-related work.

 

[Top_Cat]

Sure you aren't confusing the Bankstown game where rain almost definitely saved SA due to losing two sessions worth of play. Adelaide was fine and we were cruising at 5/400 when it was called after 354 overs of play in the match.

Jesus, you're parochial. NSW were following on. That they batted as well as they did in their second dig doesn't change that they were sweating for the majority of the match.

 

[adub]

Jesus, you're parochial. NSW were following on. That they batted as well as they did in their second dig doesn't change that they were sweating for the majority of the match.

Nah just questioning the rain bit. No time lost in that game. You said it yourself Lyon had a chance to really show his stuff, and didn't.

 

[Top_Cat]

There were rain interruptions on day 4 and the game was called off early. Not enough to seriously affect where it was headed, though.

 

[Prince EWS]

I'll get to the other points later, but Lyon is actually a much better fielder than O'Keefe IMO. O'Keefe has always had a rep as a good fielder but I've seen him shell multiple sitters.

 

[outbreak]

Apparently watto may miss out the NZ series (or at least the first test) with his hamstring. Who's likely to replace him? Khawaja could slot in to open with Hughes (no way Katich gets recalled) then we'd need an all rounder to fill in some overs (they bowling attack looked like it needed it this current test). Any chance McDonald gets another shot? Last season he really shined with the bat. I hope they don't debut Mitch Marsh for the hell of it and turn the baggy green into a joke to obtain. If Shaun Marsh is out too leaves us with Harris, Watto and Marsh needing replacements.

 

[adub]

I don't know where you're getting that most agree Lyon shouldn't have been picked.

erm

Originally Posted by Top_Cat
I thought O'Keefe should have been given a go by now

If O'Keefe had been given that go it's pretty unlikely that Lyon would have been picked.

The average masks other parts of his game which are missing, though. He's clearly the number 2 when Hauritz is in the side and, despite the 1 5-fer, takes about 3 per match. Lyon's selection had less going for it statistically but, well, it's fairly clear to me who the more skilled operator is and will be in the future.

I'm not bagging O'Keefe, as I said he's a great contributor to any team in all 3 disciplines. But at Test level, it's a fair question whether he'll take regular wickets and that's what he'll be judged on.

I'd love to know what this mystery missing ingredient is. He clearly isn't any longer seen as being Hauritz's off sider at NSW. Being given the (c) pretty much puts paid to that little theory. Haurie was getting games instead of SOK in places like Perth more because he was the incumbent Test spinner or NSW were under orders as he was still in the frame. Pretty clear now who'll miss out if we only play one spinner and it won't be SNJ O'Keefe.

As for 3 wickets in a game that is pretty solid finger spin territory. They don't get into the 4 per game territory. SOK once again stacks up pretty highly against his contemporaries and in history. In fact his extra wicket per match goes a long way to explaining all of his other better stats than his peers.
Mallett - 3.78 w/m
O'Keefe - 3.40 w/m
May - 3.09 w/m
Matthews - 2.72 w/m
Beer - 2.52 w/m
Lyon - 2.50 w/m
Doherty - 2.42 w/m
Hauritz - 2.37 w/m
Krejza - 2.29 w/m

So yeah let's ignore stats and just go with the gut. Oh Lyon looks good so let's pick him despite the fact that even with a gift 5-fer on a bunsen and a full series in SL which should be spin paradise he only manages 2.5 wickets per match. I'll take a guy who has demonstrated that he will contribute regularly with both bat and ball, over a guy who looks like he should be a good bowler but doesn't have the record to go with it and is going to be delighted with any innings he reaches double figures.

It is not anything like a fair question as to if he'd take more wickets at test level than Lyon. Are you saying O'Keefe has some magic power that only works on Shield batsmen, English test batsmen, and Sri Lanka A batsmen that Lyon and his other contemporaries don't have, but in test match conditions this miraculously reverses and it is Lyon with the inexplicable power to mesmerise (at 2.5 w/m) but SOK would be left helpless. Every single indicator is that the exact opposite is true. You can rate your opinion and ability to see the ineffable all you like. I happen to not see these mysterious missing ingredients when I watch SOK bowl. He has great control (which is why he goes for so few rpo compared to anyone else), subtle variations of flight and speed, and gets just enough turn to beat the bat. He's already got all the ingredients. You don't have to turn it square to be a great spinner. You also seem to imply that O'Keefe can't improve (with no evidence to support the contention), but Lyon with just 5 less fc matches and just 3 years younger has this massive improvement to come (based on hope and the fact he's starting a long way behind more than anything). Why won't O'Keefe continue to improve as a bowler? Again absolutely nothing but gut feeling.

O'Keefe's average isn't masking anything any more than Lyon's is. The stats aren't telling the whole story, but the whole story is told in the stats. The whole story is a simple one. O'Keefe causes more problems for first class batsmen than any other spinner in Australia. That's why he gets more out per game, at less balls per wicket, and goes for less runs per wicket, and less runs per over doing it. He also backs that up with being the most consistent No.8 in the country with 5 50s from his 17 games and a mid 30s average. He rounds that out with leadership ability and good outfielding skills. All in all he's a fantastic all round cricketer whose position in the test team should be a no brainer at a time where we're struggling to beat time with a stick.

We can only play one specialist spinner except on the rarest of occasions, so it's important that the one we pick is the best. It's not like quicks, or batsmen. You've got a bit of leeway there and you may have an argument over one or two, but spinners and keepers it's simple - put the best one you possible have in the side. Whilst we've been dicking around with Doherty, Beer and Lyon, the best spinner we have has been doing the business in the Shield in ways all three of them could only dream about. It's now time to stop ****ing about and give O'Keefe the job he should have had months ago.

It's a little bit different when you're one of the greatest spinners the world has ever seen vs O'Keefe. Longer leash is warranted.

Not to mention, Warne was a hard trainer. Could complain about his discipline and habits outside of the game but he made sure noone could question his cricket-related work.

I'm not comparing him to Warne, merely making the point that being a bit of a rogue is no reason not to be picked. I doubt the validity of any such rumours as it is. Sounds more like someone looking for an excuse for the inexcusable. O'Keefe certainly doesn't play like someone who is dogging it on the training paddock. And anyway the best spinner currently going around in Australia is worth a slightly longer leash (if it was needed - which I don't for a second believe it is).

Again this is not a criticism of Lyon, it is a criticism of Hilditch. That useless clown is gone now, so we don't have to continue to live with his **** ups. If we don't get past those mistakes we're doomed to continue to perform as we have these past few years.

 

[Prince EWS]

Apparently watto may miss out the NZ series (or at least the first test) with his hamstring. Who's likely to replace him? Khawaja could slot in to open with Hughes (no way Katich gets recalled) then we'd need an all rounder to fill in some overs (they bowling attack looked like it needed it this current test). Any chance McDonald gets another shot? Last season he really shined with the bat. I hope they don't debut Mitch Marsh for the hell of it and turn the baggy green into a joke to obtain. If Shaun Marsh is out too leaves us with Harris, Watto and Marsh needing replacements.

If just one of Watson or Marsh are injured then Khawaja (or possibly Marsh himself if it's Watson who's injured) will just open up and the rest of the batting lineup will be as it is in this Test. If they both miss the game then Warner will open. I reckon that's all but set in stone.

 

[adub]

I'll get to the other points later, but Lyon is actually a much better fielder than O'Keefe IMO. O'Keefe has always had a rep as a good fielder but I've seen him shell multiple sitters.

That is true, he's put down a few that he should have held, but he's hardly the only guy to have done that. Clarke, Hussey and Watson do it all the time. I wouldn't call them bad fielders.

He's much better over the ground, good arm, movement anticipation etc.

The catching thing is something we as a nation seem to have slipped badly at over the last 5 or so years. You remember under Simpson and after that it was the benchmark of our game. We used to hold some ridiculous catches. It's something we badly need to get back.

 

[adub]

Apparently watto may miss out the NZ series (or at least the first test) with his hamstring. Who's likely to replace him? Khawaja could slot in to open with Hughes (no way Katich gets recalled) then we'd need an all rounder to fill in some overs (they bowling attack looked like it needed it this current test). Any chance McDonald gets another shot? Last season he really shined with the bat. I hope they don't debut Mitch Marsh for the hell of it and turn the baggy green into a joke to obtain. If Shaun Marsh is out too leaves us with Harris, Watto and Marsh needing replacements.

If Watson is out or can't bowl then it really makes Copeland (or an equivalent) a must have in the line up. It also makes dropping non contributors (yes I'm talking about you Johnson and Siddle) more urgent. Lastly it makes it hard to select Harris (what if he breaks down mid match). Obviously Cummins will be there. The other two quicks will need to be able to bowl plenty of overs.

I don't think there's any point in trying to pick a top order bat solely on bowling ability. Clarke, and Muss (and Ponting if he survives) have shown they can chip in when required. It's not the same as having Watson, but it helps.