Zaheer on Indian bowling

[r3alist]

The difficulty of the culture argument is that eventually you would think a real gem would appear from somewhere just based on the enormous selection pool, and this hasn't happened from a 60+ year period.

So even despite everything allegedly working against the indians I still maintain that they should produce more quality bowlers than they do, just on the balance of probability and likelihood.

Nz is a good example because their potential talent pool is exponentially smaller than indias yet they have atleast two gems in bond and hadlee.

 

[shankar]

I think Karan's SG ball reason, which I've also mentioned before is one of the fundamental reasons.

 

[r3alist]

So many "fundamental reasons" India must be one of the unluckiest cricketing nations in the world, despite having perhaps the biggest possible advantage in international sport, which is an enormous potential talent pool!!


These sorts of structural/cultural deficiencies could feasibly effect a smaller cricketing country, but even if you accept everything said I would still expect India to fluke some great bowlers who go against the expectation.

 

[smash84]

India need to find one guy who is very quick and inspirational then (according to the role model theory) the flood gates will open

 

[shankar]

So many "fundamental reasons" India must be one of the unluckiest cricketing nations in the world, despite having perhaps the biggest possible advantage in international sport, which is an enormous potential talent pool!!


These sorts of structural/cultural deficiencies could feasibly effect a smaller cricketing country, but even if you accept everything said I would still expect India to fluke some great bowlers who go against the expectation.

Don't know where luck comes into the reason I provided. The question about the lack of great bowlers is an altogether different one from the one about quick bowlers which is what we've been discussing so far.

 

[r3alist]

Both adhere to the same principle I am referring to, which is due to the sheer amount of people you would still expect alot of outliers who are more than a few standard deviations greater than the mean, in terms of speed and quality, take your pick, although there is significant overlap between the two.

Look at nz, they have produced atleast two really great bowlers in their history from a pool of a lot of mediocre guys (no offence intended).

 

[Furball]

There's no correlation between speed and quality.

 

[smash84]

i think it would be wrong to say there is NO correlation between speed and quality

 

[Furball]

i think it would be wrong to say there is NO correlation between speed and quality

There pretty much isn't. The two best seam bowlers from the subcontinent in the last 5 years (Asif and Zaheer) aren't rapid.

 

[smash84]

Shoaib Akhtar? Waqar Younis? Imran Khan?

 

[Furball]

Shoaib Akhtar? Waqar Younis? Imran Khan?

Last 5 years?

 

[Daemon]

Last 5 years?

Why do only the last 5 years have to be taken into consideration?

 

[Furball]

Why do only the last 5 years have to be taken into consideration?

Because it suits my argument.

Nah, seriously, it's because I reckon you guys put far too much emphasis on a bowler's pace, I'm just pointing out that the two best seamers from the subcontinent from the last 5 years haven't been particularly quick.

 

[Daemon]

Because it suits my argument.

Nah, seriously, it's because I reckon you guys put far too much emphasis on a bowler's pace, I'm just pointing out that the two best seamers from the subcontinent from the last 5 years haven't been particularly quick.

Nah, I don't tbh You've also forgotten WPUJC Vaas!


Anyways, I think what shankar was trying to say, i.e. the discussion is why isn't India producing fast bowlers (disregarding all other aspects of pace bowling), is the only thing worth debating here. As for the question of why we don't produce great bowlers, that debate would have different arguments from the current one.

Still think we need to start all our cricketers on a diet of venison/beef/mutton tbh Not enough protein in the diets.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Nah, I don't tbh You've also forgotten WPUJC Vaas!


Anyways, I think what shankar was trying to say, i.e. the discussion is why isn't India producing fast bowlers (disregarding all other aspects of pace bowling), is the only thing worth debating here. As for the question of why we don't produce great bowlers, that debate would have different arguments from the current one.

Still think we need to start all our cricketers on a diet of venison/beef/mutton tbh Not enough protein in the diets.

I'm surprised you haven't made the quite logical suggestion of feeding the spinners to the quicks

 

[Prince EWS]

I'm surprised you haven't made the quite logical suggestion of feeding the spinners to the quicks

!!

 

[Daemon]

I'm surprised you haven't made the quite logical suggestion of feeding the spinners to the quicks

wac

 

[Outswinger@Pace]

With all due respect to Zaheer, he's a masteful swing bowler but he doesn't come across as well-informed in this particular instance. Don't want to make this a genetics oriented discussion, but the subcontinent is a global melting pot of different genepools. And has been that way for a few millenia. From a scientific point, such a thing as an Indian gene (or Sri Lankan or Pakistani or Nepali gene, for that matter) is non-existent. Therefore, the question of a genetic proclivity or a genetic shortcoming that extends across the whole demographical spectrum does not arise.

As for the topic Zak has raised, we had discussed this thing in the past, where I had expressed some views. Please be advised that it's a long post and somewhat subjective in nature.

 

[Furball]

With all due respect to Zaheer, he's a masteful swing bowler but he doesn't come across as well-informed in this particular instance. Don't want to make this a genetics oriented discussion, but the subcontinent is a global melting pot of different genepools. And has been that way for a few millenia. From a scientific point, such a thing as an Indian gene (or Sri Lankan or Pakistani or Nepali gene, for that matter) is non-existent. Therefore, the question of a genetic proclivity or a genetic shortcoming that extends across the whole demographical spectrum does not arise.

As for the topic Zak has raised, we had discussed this thing in the past, where I had expressed some views. Please be advised that it's a long post and somewhat subjective in nature.

Subjective, but an interesting insight nontheless.

The point about being the batsman's bitch was interesting. I'm going out just now so might expand on this later.

 

[r3alist]

With all due respect to Zaheer, he's a masteful swing bowler but he doesn't come across as well-informed in this particular instance. Don't want to make this a genetics oriented discussion, but the subcontinent is a global melting pot of different genepools. And has been that way for a few millenia. From a scientific point, such a thing as an Indian gene (or Sri Lankan or Pakistani or Nepali gene, for that matter) is non-existent. Therefore, the question of a genetic proclivity or a genetic shortcoming that extends across the whole demographical spectrum does not arise.

As for the topic Zak has raised, we had discussed this thing in the past, where I had expressed some views. Please be advised that it's a long post and somewhat subjective in nature.

There's no distinct Indian or Pakistani gene or precise trait, but there are very big sub groups who are distinct.

There are Tamils, Pathans, Baluch who are distinct from the rest of the region.