Kallis Vs Dravid

[Flem274*]

Like I said, we have to agree to disagree here.

As you wish.

 

[centurymaker]

Twin hundreds against India in the Third Test last year?

thats the obvz one.
if he hadn't scored those 100s in that test, i bet most people would be voting for dravid...

kallis stock shot up considerably after that test. i mean it was only after that test that the general public became aware of kallis' extraordinary stats.
i remember flintoff tweeting something to the effect that- "WOW kallis has great figures"

I'm with you on the whole Dravid > Kallis thing but trying to use stats to justify it is stupid. Just admit it's down to your subjective biases.

dravid's avg drops to 46, so i'm not trying to show that kallis alone has done all the feasting... just saying that stats at face value are misleading... you actually have to watch their knocks to be in a better position to judge them.

as good as tendulkar is, even he hasn't performed as well as dravid in adverse batting conditions/ in face of adversity, particularly in the last 10 years.

 

[centurymaker]

sounds kind of convenient, doesn't it? when he goes missing, it is because he is out of form! what is actually silly is blanket statements like dravid plays best in the difficult conditions and others to that effect.

who has a better defensive technique? dravid or tendulkar?

 

[hang on]

i would give it to tendulkar, actually, though i am sure that many would think the opposite. not really sure what that has to do with anything.

between richards and gavaskar, i think that gavaskar had the better defensive technique of the two, but i still think that richards was the better batsman.

 

[ganeshran]

who has a better defensive technique? dravid or tendulkar?

Sachin has a better defensive technique, even though Dravid uses it more often than Sachin

 

[centurymaker]

dravid plays the ball so so late that it helps him counter Swing and Seam!

don't think tendulkar's technique allows him to play seam bowling that well (just like almost everyone else in the modern era ).

 

[hang on]

dravid plays the ball so so late that it helps him counter Swing and Seam!

don't think tendulkar's technique allows him to play seam bowling that well (just like almost everyone else in the modern era ).

don't his figures belie that assertion?

he has done well or decently pretty much everywhere. whether england, australia, south africa, west indies...surely he encountered decent seam and swing on those travels?!

 

[centurymaker]

don't his figures belie that assertion?

he has done well or decently pretty much everywhere. whether england, australia, south africa, west indies...surely he encountered decent seam and swing on those travels?!

it has nothing to do with doing well. it's like 'dravid is a limited stroke-maker, yet he scores alot'
you can always find ways to do well...


sachin's ok against seam but dravid's much better because he plays late (and usually on the back foot)
(dravid has a techqiue from the yesteryears, while tendulkar has a modern-day techqiue..)

tendulkar predominantly plays on the front foot and sometimes even goes outside of his crease to negate swing but in doing so gives himself even less time to react to sudden seam movement...

 

[hang on]

it has nothing to do with doing well. it's like 'dravid is a limited stroke-maker, yet he scores alot'
you can always find ways to do well...


sachin's ok against seam but dravid's much better because he plays late (and usually on the back foot)
(dravid has a techqiue from the yesteryears, while tendulkar has a modern-day techqiue..)

tendulkar predominantly plays on the front foot and sometimes even goes outside of his crease to negate swing but in doing so gives himself even less time to react to sudden seam movement...

i think it has everything to with doing well. u said he is much better against seam. i think that he is not, since tendulkar has done just as well against seam. as his record shows. i remember watching him during his earlier days - on his first couple of tours in england (actually managed to watch him live) - and he played a lot of the back foot or late from the crease without committing his weight (half ****). he has adapted his technique over time, or that is what it seems like to me. of course, my memory might also have some holes in it!

and, for what it is worth, i do not think that dravid is a limited strokemaker by any means. he has shots all around the park. and he could hook and pull.

 

[Uppercut]

I still don't see Kallis getting enough credit for playing his home games in South Africa. It's such a ridiculous disadvantage compared to playing them in India. The cases in favour of Dravid won't be especially convincing until they do a better job of addressing that point imo.

 

[hang on]

I still don't see Kallis getting enough credit for playing his home games in South Africa. It's such a ridiculous disadvantage compared to playing them in India. The cases in favour of Dravid won't be especially convincing until they do a better job of addressing that point imo.

that is truly overegging it.

 

[ganeshran]

Batsmen always find it easier to bat in familiar conditions. Thats why a lot of English batsmen average higher in England than in the subcontinent despite the relatively easier batting wickets in SC.

 

[centurymaker]

i think it has everything to with doing well. u said he is much better against seam. i think that he is not, since tendulkar has done just as well against seam. as his record shows. i remember watching him during his earlier days - on his first couple of tours in england (actually managed to watch him live) - and he played a lot of the back foot or late from the crease without committing his weight (half ****). he has adapted his technique over time, or that is what it seems like to me. of course, my memory might also have some holes in it!

and, for what it is worth, i do not think that dravid is a limited strokemaker by any means. he has shots all around the park. and he could hook and pull.

perhaps thats the case.
........
now that i think about it (trying to recall footage from vids), he did indeed bat differently then. played more in his crease, and moved his front foot forward a lot less i.e. played late and more on the back-foot.
This explains why he was so successful everywhere when he was younger.

it's amazing how he was quite a different batsman pre injuries..

i'll change my statement-
tendulkar's current technique is inferior to dravid's for playing the seaming ball.

-played a part in his below par performance in england.

 

[hang on]

u might well be right about that.

 

[Furball]

Batsmen always find it easier to bat in familiar conditions. Thats why a lot of English batsmen average higher in England than in the subcontinent despite the relatively easier batting wickets in SC.

South Africa is a ridiculously hard place to bat. Most South African batsmen average 40-45 at home - Kallis averages 57. Even allowing for the whole home conditions factor, that's an enormous level of performance from Kallis that he's sustained for 15 years. None of his contemporaries come close to that level of performance.

 

[Top_Cat]

Completely subjective but I think that's over-stating it. Would suggest that their strong bowling attack has helped their batters overseas where good bowling really matters on good wickets (bad wickets tend to even out the contest) so they've overachieved away from home rather than under-achieving at home.

A good bowling attack does wonders for the batting unit, quite a few Aussie batters in the past 15 years have better records in SA than their career average.

 

[Uppercut]

I don't know how far you can downplay how much harder it is to bat on a greentop than a slow road, it's pretty well-established. Especially considering how often these debates end up emphasising how important it is for players to perform in difficult conditions and low-scoring games. Also, fwiw , Kallis has utterly dominated Indian conditions and Dravid has struggled quite a bit in South Africa.

It's interesting that Aussies tend to have a lot more respect for Dravid. Might have been T_C that mentioned before how players that adapt their game for the team tend to go down a lot better there than players who spend the game in a bubble.

 

[Prince EWS]

I don't know how far you can downplay how much harder it is to bat on a greentop than a slow road, it's pretty well-established. Especially considering how often these debates end up emphasising how important it is for players to perform in difficult conditions and low-scoring games. Also, fwiw , Kallis has utterly dominated Indian conditions and Dravid has struggled quite a bit in South Africa.

It's interesting that Aussies tend to have a lot more respect for Dravid. Might have been T_C that mentioned before how players that adapt their game for the team tend to go down a lot better there than players who spend the game in a bubble.

Yeah Kallis has a terrible reputation here and the more casual the cricket fan, the worse it seems to get. I actually use him as someone of an international cricketing knowledge barometer when I talk to people about cricket here - the typical casual/cheerleading fan here thinks he's a legitimately poor player.

 

[Furball]

I don't know how far you can downplay how much harder it is to bat on a greentop than a slow road, it's pretty well-established. Especially considering how often these debates end up emphasising how important it is for players to perform in difficult conditions and low-scoring games. Also, fwiw , Kallis has utterly dominated Indian conditions and Dravid has struggled quite a bit in South Africa.

It's interesting that Aussies tend to have a lot more respect for Dravid. Might have been T_C that mentioned before how players that adapt their game for the team tend to go down a lot better there than players who spend the game in a bubble.

Performance against Australia has to have an influence there. Fairly sure Dravid has played a massive role in most of India's Test wins against the great Australian side - was there with Laxman in Kolkata, scored about 300 runs for once out in Adelaide in 2003/04 etc etc (copping out with the etcs because that's all I can think of off the top of my head.)

 

[Top_Cat]

I don't know how far you can downplay how much harder it is to bat on a greentop than a slow road, it's pretty well-established.

Depends on how slow. Also, on a green deck with reasonable pace, even if the ball's moving, there's runs to be had. I don't see it as well established at all, every pitch is different. If you play on enough types of pitches you see which ones are tougher to score off and which ones aren't and green decks are not the toughest.

It's interesting that Aussies tend to have a lot more respect for Dravid. Might have been T_C that mentioned before how players that adapt their game for the team tend to go down a lot better there than players who spend the game in a bubble.

For me, that's absolutely it. Against Australia, very few of Kallis' knocks have been influential on result of the match. Kallis would just drop anchor and the **** at the other end had to make the play. In fairness, SA have had plenty of players of that ilk (goes a long way to explaining why they've got such a poor record against Australia as a team) but the point is, players like that don't win you games as often as a bloke whose batting by its nature forces the opposition to react and change their game, especially when the opposition are equally matched. Dictating the play doesn't just result in runs for you either, it lifts the bloke at the other end.

It's not just knocks against Australia per se which influences opinion on Dravid because he's had more than his fair share of poor ones too. It's when and how he's gone about his runs. It's not a technical or statistical thing but Dravid's knocks have just been more influential in wins than Kallis', on the ones I've seen.

Kallis doing well against India vs Dravid doing poorly against SA is neither here nor there for me. It's fairly clear the Saffers bowling attack has been vastly superior to India anywhere in the world, India's wins at home and away generally driven by their batting being able to suffocate or chase down anything the opposition sets. You'd take facing Kumble/Zaheer/Harbhajan/Pathan/Sreesanth any day of the week on any pitch over Donald/DeVilliers/Pollock/Steyn, home conditions or no.