Butt/Amir/Asif - Spot Fixing Trial

[Cevno]

Nah, funnily enough we come from cultures where corruption isn't as tolerated.

That's a dire,ignorant and patronising post.

Can pretty well respond in kind with 584845845 things but don't want to turn this into a cultural ****fest.

 

[G.I.Joe]

I don't think we'd be seeing any of the defence we're seeing, certainly not from the people who are doing the defending, if it had been Michael Amir from England or Australia.

Very true. What tickles me is that the consequence of seeking to condone Amir's perfidy by alleging a dysfunctional and corrupt societal background and citing a systemic failure, they're actually unintentionally making a pretty good case for banning Pakistan as a cricketing nation.

 

[Cevno]

Very true. What tickles me is that the consequence of seeking to condone Amir's perfidy by alleging a dysfunctional and corrupt societal background and citing a systemic failure, they're actually unintentionally making a pretty good case for banning Pakistan as a cricketing nation.

You are trying to view the whole argument pretty narrowly. Nobody has done what you are saying in a macro sense and you can't get that argument without exaggerating exactly what people mean to a completely different context. In any case that is only part of the argument in this specific case whereas each case in such things,is different to the other in each country.

I am not for defending Asif and Butt at all, but as i explained before Amir's case could be different. And advocating a life ban for this is ludicrous.

 

[TheChevyBomb]

I don't think we'd be seeing any of the defence we're seeing, certainly not from the people who are doing the defending, if it had been Michael Amir from England or Australia.

its coming from a biased bitter blue who have not yet been able to produce one world class fast bowler

 

[Spikey]

Just read some of this thread. Well done CW. You suck

bitch i will kill you

edit welp forgot to log in as James

 

[Furball]

I am not for defending Asif and Butt at all, but as i explained before Amir's case could be different. And advocating a life ban for this is ludicrous.

Ridiculous.

Asif was the only one of the three to withdraw his appeal against the initial suspensions handed out.

Asif's no-ball was explained on the grounds that Salman Butt had asked him to bowl a faster ball. Asif marginally overstepped, there is no doubt whatsoever that Amir's no-ball was deliberate. For me, there still remains an element of doubt as to Asif's involvement, there is no doubt as to Amir's.

Furthermore, you appear to be basing your non-defence of Asif on his previous long charge sheet of behaving like a dick. Amir's subsequent behaviour - the wearing of stupid t-shirts to his disciplinary hearings, his defiance of the ban by playing club cricket in England this summer and his apparent admission of guilt to a court (therefore implying that he told the ICC tribunal a pack of lies) are all pretty severe black marks on his character.

The game of cricket is better off without such individuals. A life ban might be harsh on Amir as an individual, but so what? If a harsh ban for the three individuals involved make any youngster think twice about committing a similar offence in the future, then that player's career and the game have been well served. And the game of cricket is far more important than Mohammad Amir.

 

[Cruxdude]

I remember when I was 19 and all this started, and how utterly patronising I thought it was that Amir seemed to get so much sympathy for being young.

Seems to have got worse.

Hey, y'know, sometime teenagers can think. And that's as if the moron was really 18 anyway.

But you were no where as famous as Amir or received as much adulation as Amir. Those things are pretty heady feelings. A young man from a poor background suddenly has fame beyond he ever imagined and his **** hole captain offers loads of money just to bowl a couple of no balls. Very easy to get derailed in these circumstances.

Also he is not getting off scot-free. A ban for 5 years is, according to me a very prudent judgement. Other wise it would have just been a mockery of justice.

 

[PhoenixFire]

Like Furball said, nobody is bigger than the game. You can feel as sorry for Aamer as you want (rightly or wrongly), but I think that you can't let someone **** up the game, thousands of players and millions of supporters just because you feel sorry for them. It's better for everyone in the long run if cheats like this get very long bans.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

its coming from a biased bitter blue who have not yet been able to produce one world class fast bowler

There is no need for that.

Furball is Scottish, not Indian.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

I guess 5 years is appropriate for what he did. However I don't want him to go to jail (really hope there is plea bargaining).

 

[PhoenixFire]

There is no need for that.

Furball is Scottish, not Indian.

 

[Howe_zat]

But you were no where as famous as Amir or received as much adulation as Amir. Those things are pretty heady feelings. A young man from a poor background suddenly has fame beyond he ever imagined and his **** hole captain offers loads of money just to bowl a couple of no balls. Very easy to get derailed in these circumstances.

What claptrap.

Because when I was filling out the 15th application form of the day that's going to be ignored, and considering what I'd write to make it sound as though I really, really wanted to work in a petrol station for minimum wage in order to pay my student's fees, I thought about how ****ty it would be to be an international cricket star.

Pillock threw all that away so as he can get a nice car. I have less than nil sympathy.

 

[fredfertang]

It's all very well arguing about whether or not Amir has been judged too harshly but the reality is I don't see how anyone can form a definite view at the moment, and we may never be able to - one way or another we should know more once the trial is over, but even that may not reveal what really happened or, more likely, the three of the will all contradict each other and the detail of their respective roles will always be a matter for speculation

For my part I can see that it may be that Amir has got off lightly, certainly some of the people I represent in Youth Courts are every bit as criminally sophisticated and more than their older brethren, although I think it more likely that he has been unwittingly inveigled into something he didn't really understand.

Most likely of all though is that he knew exactly what he was doing, could have said no but decided to take a chance, in which case I'd say five years is about right

 

[BoyBrumby]

It's all very well arguing about whether or not Amir has been judged too harshly but the reality is I don't see how anyone can form a definite view at the moment, and we may never be able to - one way or another we should know more once the trial is over, but even that may not reveal what really happened or, more likely, the three of the will all contradict each other and the detail of their respective roles will always be a matter for speculation

For my part I can see that it may be that Amir has got off lightly, certainly some of the people I represent in Youth Courts are every bit as criminally sophisticated and more than their older brethren, although I think it more likely that he has been unwittingly inveigled into something he didn't really understand.

Most likely of all though is that he knew exactly what he was doing, could have said no but decided to take a chance, in which case I'd say five years is about right

Based on your experience how much of a favour is the guilty plea likely to do him, sentence wise?

As a layman there does seem a lot of factors his defence could use in mitigation (his youth, his apparent callowness, the pressure from his captain and more experienced bowling partner/co-conspiritor) but on occasion one suspects people in the public eye are made examples of.

 

[fredfertang]

Based on your experience how much of a favour is the guilty plea likely to do him, sentence wise?

As a layman there does seem a lot of factors his defence could use in mitigation (his youth, his apparent callowness, the pressure from his captain and more experienced bowling partner/co-conspiritor) but on occasion one suspects people in the public eye are made examples of.

The basic idea is you get a third off for a guilty plea at the first reasonable opportunity, falling to 10% if you plead at the start of your trial and, as here (if 'tis true which increasingly I doubt), something in between. The discount might work by shifting you down a sentencing band eg from a custodial to community penalty.

What makes this case tricky is that the Defendants don't live in the UK so community sentences won't happen anyway so its a fine or chokey. I really don't think that, ordinarily, it would be a custodial but the wrong (or right depending on your point of view) judge might want to dish out a deterrent sentence - my expectation on a plea would be a modest financial penalty for Amir and larger fines for the Captain Butt and the recidivist

 

[Cruxdude]

What claptrap.

Because when I was filling out the 15th application form of the day that's going to be ignored, and considering what I'd write to make it sound as though I really, really wanted to work in a petrol station for minimum wage in order to pay my student's fees, I thought about how ****ty it would be to be an international cricket star.

Pillock threw all that away so as he can get a nice car. I have less than nil sympathy.

Way to miss the point. Bravo.

 

[G.I.Joe]

You are trying to view the whole argument pretty narrowly. Nobody has done what you are saying in a macro sense and you can't get that argument without exaggerating exactly what people mean to a completely different context. In any case that is only part of the argument in this specific case whereas each case in such things,is different to the other in each country.

I am not for defending Asif and Butt at all, but as i explained before Amir's case could be different. And advocating a life ban for this is ludicrous.

What I said is what it boils down to. You either attribute what you consider a significant proportion of the blame to his upbringing and environment and corruption-friendly system, which leads to the inevitable conclusion that Pakistan is a basketcase that cannot be trusted as a cricketing entity, or you acknowledge the inexcusable betrayal of a man who, far from being the village bumpkin leading a hand to mouth existance, was a greedy individual that didn't let his substantial experience of five years representing his nation at various levels deter him from seeking to line his pockets in an illicit manner. And this is only compounded by the evidence that it wasn't just meant as a one-off, but rather a means of demonstrating that he was amenable to further inducement.

 

[Furball]

What I said is what it boils down to. You either attribute what you consider a significant proportion of the blame to his upbringing and environment and corruption-friendly system, which leads to the inevitable conclusion that Pakistan is a basketcase that cannot be trusted as a cricketing entity, or you acknowledge the inexcusable betrayal of a man who, far from being the village bumpkin leading a hand to mouth existance, was a greedy individual that didn't let his substantial experience of five years representing his nation at various levels deter him from seeking to line his pockets in an illicit manner. And this is only compounded by the evidence that it wasn't just meant as a one-off, but rather a means of demonstrating that he was amenable to further inducement.

Joe wins the thread.

 

[slowfinger]

I hate talking about this, really breaks my heart. Can't see why Amir should ever play cricket again but also I feel Pakistan really need him

 

[zaremba]

It's not a straw man though. If he stays banned for 5 years and then the fact is if Ameer is still playing to a high level then someone is going to have to make way when that period elapses. Is that fair?

Obviously all the previously mentioned arguments about the bigger picture play a part as well. For me the fairness issue - unless something is unjust - it is less important when compared to the huge impact on the game of cricket. I don't have a problem with a harsh or lenient punishment if it serves cricket. That is to some extent what happens elsewhere in law with people accepting guilt and giving evidence against other criminals for a reduced sentence and so forth.

Sentencing of an individual has to take into account both the effect on the wider society (in the case of a criminal charge) or the game of cricket (in the case of a disciplinary charge), on the one hand, and also the rights of the individual on the other. The latter cannot completely be overridden by the former.

I realise that this is unpopular, but from a legal perspective it's completely uncontroversial. Fertang and Burgey to contradict me if I'm wrong.