Garry Sobers v Imran Khan,Test Cricket:Poll

[Ikki]

They dont for Lillee either.

But you're wrong, because they do.

I am not looking for stats to put someone far and away ahead of anyone, or to make them 0.1 points superior to 2nd place. If that was the case, I wouldn't rate Richards ahead of all bar Bradman as a bat. But both Lillee and Richards are in the statistical ball-park of greats and their rivals are few points ahead and it is close between them either way. Moreover they also have universal adoration (or a lot of it) and I separate them from their rivals because of it.

What makes Sobers so universally lauded with the worst bowling stats of anyone who has taken 200 or more wickets is a mystery. I am yet to have it explained in terms where it is logical and reasonable.

 

[smash84]

If just showing up for batting is good enough, Lillee and Marshall > Imran as allrounders..


The point is that there was a whole 9 year period out of his 20 year career where Sobers had very good figures for a bowler, and this also coincided with a great run of his as a batsman. Imran doesn't have such a period.. I have seen stats from BS (that is Bhupinder Singh, btw, before you let your imagination run wild ) about Imran in a number of threads now and counters for those and it is somewhat obvious he didn't always succeed in both formats. So let me ask your own question to you,, What is the point of having an allrounder if he can only succeed in one discipline in any given match?

Emmm....would you mind taking a look at those series that I have posted above? He performed with both bat and ball in those series and was the only reason why Pakistan managed to win some of those or come close to winning them.

 

[Ikki]

Yeah.. just like the argument on Sobers' bowling based on his record against Pakistan.. Thanks for proving my point.

How is his bowling against Pakistan not relevant? Anyway, it's not like smali or I only mentioned that. He doesn't have good stats against anyone bar India. BTW, where is this 9 year period of excellence of Sobers as a bowler? He started bowling pace around the 60s and it is in this time he improved his figures greatly. Starting at 1962. Continuing from 9 years from that period his figures are thus: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...2;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

Unless you are talking about another 9 year period.

 

[Sanz]

You asked questions; let's hear some explanations and reasonings using the stats you say support the historian view. I am open to all 3 of those questions favouring Sobers, but let's get some tangible evidence as to why.

Gary Sobers when he opened bowling (assuming that he was bowling as a left arm fast/medium fast bowler when he opened the bowling), averages around 30-31, which is very comparable to Kapil/Botham's record as opening bowlers or just as bowler. Seems to me that he was more than capable of being a fast bowler.

Sobers took 20 or more wickets 3 times in his career (That's equal to what Harbhajan and Zaheer Khan together have taken) , suggests that he could indeed take wickets like a full time bowler if required to or used as one. Let me know how many part times achieve that kind of feat in the bowling careers.

Looking at his series as bowler, It seems that Sobers consistently bowled like a full time bowler and also picked up wickets in almost every series, like a front line bowler. It definitely backs the historians claims about Sobers skill as a bowler.

 

[smash84]

Sobers took 20 or more wickets 3 times in his career (That's equal to what Harbhajan and Zaheer Khan together have taken) , suggests that he could indeed take wickets like a full time bowler if required to or used as one. Let me know how many part times achieve that kind of feat in the bowling careers.

In a 3 match series?

 

[kyear2]

But you're wrong, because they do.

I am not looking for stats to put someone far and away ahead of anyone, or to make them 0.1 points superior to 2nd place. If that was the case, I wouldn't rate Richards ahead of all bar Bradman as a bat. But both Lillee and Richards are in the statistical ball-park of greats and their rivals are few points ahead and it is close between them either way. Moreover they also have universal adoration (or a lot of it) and I separate them from their rivals because of it.

What makes Sobers so universally lauded with the worst bowling stats of anyone who has taken 200 or more wickets is a mystery. I am yet to have it explained in terms where it is logical and reasonable.

Because he is your #6 batsman (one of top 4 batsmens of all time) and your #5 support bowler, and he can bowl better than any genuine #6 batsman you can name in history.
He can also field in the slips to the fast men better than most and at leg slip or short leg for Warne, better than most.

 

[Ikki]

Gary Sobers when he opened bowling (assuming that he was bowling as a left arm fast/medium fast bowler when he opened the bowling), averages around 30-31, which is very comparable to Kapil/Botham's record as opening bowlers or just as bowler. Seems to me that he was more than capable of being a fast bowler.

#1, you don't have the stats to prove that average. #2 average is not the only problem. If his 34 average was all that was bad, sure; but his SR is usually horrendous. You cannot be a good fast bowler when you are striking in the 80s and 90s.

Sobers took 20 or more wickets 3 times in his career (That's equal to what Harbhajan and Zaheer Khan together have taken) , suggests that he could indeed take wickets like a full time bowler if required to or used as one. Let me know how many part times achieve that kind of feat in the bowling careers.

Taking 20 or more wickets 3 times in one's bowling career is not such a laudable achievement. Especially considering that Sobers bowled a lot - he was averaging 44, 46 and 54 overs a match (5 match series) in those series.

Looking at his series as bowler, It seems that Sobers consistently bowled like a full time bowler and also picked up wickets in almost every series, like a front line bowler. It definitely backs the historians claims about Sobers skill as a bowler.

I brought this up before; Sobers bowled full-time quota pretty much his whole career. Whether he was as good as a specialist for most of that time is doubtful. I'd say more than doubtful.

Anyway, if you are basing your stats argument on the above then it shouldn't need me to tell you how weak it is.

 

[honestbharani]

How is his bowling against Pakistan not relevant? Anyway, it's not like smali or I only mentioned that. He doesn't have good stats against anyone bar India. BTW, where is this 9 year period of excellence of Sobers as a bowler? He started bowling pace around the 60s and it is in this time he improved his figures greatly. Starting at 1962. Continuing from 9 years from that period his figures are thus: Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Unless you are talking about another 9 year period.

Look up the old thread, Ikki.. I am at work.. Can't go around searching through pages..

 

[Ikki]

Because he is your #6 batsman (one of top 4 batsmens of all time) and he can bowl better than eny #6 you can find.

And? This makes him the greatest all-rounder of all time - by a mile, if you consider the comments of historians? Why bowl him at all unless your team's bowling attack was weak enough to have to ask him to?

 

[robelinda]

Could not be stuffed reading the whole thread, whats the general feeling going on? Sobers obviously in a landslide win, I'm assuming there are Imran fanboys arguing like crazy over Sobers bowling stats?

 

[Ikki]

Look up the old thread, Ikki.. I am at work.. Can't go around searching through pages..

Considering Sobers' record - he doesn't have many good years - for him to have a consecutive 9 year period should be easy to find. Post them when you're at home if you can, thanks.

 

[smash84]

Could not be stuffed reading the whole thread, whats the general feeling going on? Sobers obviously in a landslide win, I'm assuming there are Imran fanboys arguing like crazy over Sobers bowling stats?

lol......I am the only Imran fanboy arguing like crazy here . Ikki is just being the devil that he is .....

 

[kyear2]

So dont you think that used properly as a 5th bowler, as Kallis is that his stats wouldn't have been better? Look at his economy rate, that was his primary job, and if you actually read about his medium space swing bowling when properly rested then you would understand. He was an over worked all rounder pressed into service as a strike, second change and when required spin bowler. Such was the work load of the man, and those who actually watched him, realised that.

And just for empasis name a genuine #6 batsman who comes close to Sobers as amatch winner in the 3 areas. Kallis batted for him self and begged of bowling when ever he could. Thats why Sobers is seen as the best by a mile.

 

[robelinda]

As a consistent all rounder surely Imran wins, but I don't know, i don't really care really. I hate comparison threads, i don't know why i clicked on this one after avoiding it for so long!

 

[Howe_zat]

World's Greatest All-Rounders! (Biggest Gaps Between Batting & Bowling Averages)

Jacques Kallis (SA): 57.43 - 32.01 = 25.42
Garry Sobers (WI): 57.78 - 34.03 = 23.75
Tim Bresnan (ENG): 45.42 - 23.60 = 21.82
Imran Khan (PAK): 37.69 - 22.81 = 14.88
Keith Miller (AUS): 36.97 - 22.97 = 14.00

4th, arguably 5th, best for Imran. Not bad for the old fella! Poor man's Kallis, Bresnan and Sobers though!

Bresnan

Howe to comment.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

Hey! Facts are facts!

Ind33d.

 

[kyear2]

All-rounders:
I.Khan - Batting - highest rating: 650 V SL 1991. spent 2 of his 88 Tests (2.3%) rated above 650.
Bowling - highest rating: 922 V Ind 1983. spent 71 of his 88 Tests (80.7%) rated above 650.
Best Simultaneous rating: 1483 v Ind 1983. (Batting-562, Bowling-921).
K.Miller - Batting - highest rating: 681 V WI 1952. spent 4 of his 55 Tests (7.3%) rated above 650.
Bowling - highest rating: 862 V SA 1953. spent 35 of his 55 Tests (63.6%) rated above 650.
Best Simultaneous rating: 1522 v WI 1952. (Batting-681, Bowling-841).
G.Sobers - Batting - highest rating: 938 V Ind 1967. spent 77 of his 93 Tests (82.8%) rated above 650.
Bowling - highest rating: 715 V Ind 1966. spent 19 of his 93 Tests (20.4%) rated above 650.
Best Simultaneous rating: 1651 v Ind 1966. (Batting-936, Bowling-715).
My analysis:
Sobers is the standout, the only one of the three who could be genuinely selected as either a batsman or bowler. Imran was never a reliable batsman until right at the end of his career. Miller was better as a batsman than Imran, but not quite the bowler, but he still doesn't hold a candle to Sobers.

Career ratings found on a web site. Every thing above is a quote.

 

[smash84]

And just for empasis name a genuine #6 batsman who comes close to Sobers as amatch winner in the 3 areas. Kallis batted for him self and begged of bowling when ever he could. Thats why Sobers is seen as the best by a mile.

Dude stop raking muck on others. Last time you claimed Imran changed the batting order so that he could make runs. Now you start throwing this at Kallis. Do you have any proper evidence to say what you are saying?

 

[smash84]

As a consistent all rounder surely Imran wins, but I don't know, i don't really care really. I hate comparison threads, i don't know why i clicked on this one after avoiding it for so long!

haha......you couldn't resist the spice Rob ........

 

[kyear2]

Pace:
D.Lillee - highest rating: 884 V Eng 1977. spent 10 of his 70 Tests (14.3%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 252.R.Lindwall - highest rating: 897 V Eng 1954. spent 22 of his 61 Tests (36.1%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 433.
M.Marshall - highest rating: 910 V Eng 1988. spent 48 of his 81 Tests (59.3%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 375.
C.Ambrose - highest rating: 912 V Eng 1994. spent 45 of his 98 Tests (45.9%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 229.
W.Akram - highest rating: 830 V Aus 1994. spent 0 of his 104 Tests (0.0%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 473.
G.McGrath - highest rating: 914 V Eng 2001. spent 83 of his 124 Tests (66.9%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 123.A.Davidson - highest rating: 908 V WI 1961. spent 18 of his 44 Tests (40.9%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 526.
R.Hadlee - highest rating: 909 V Aus 1985. spent 41 of his 86 Tests (47.7%) rated above 850. Best batting rating: 562.

My analysis: While well loved bowlers, the rating system doesn't really fancy Lillee or Akram for some reason, especially Wasim. The 4 standouts from the numbers are Marshall, Ambrose, McGrath and Hadlee. I'd have Hadlee to give some quality batting at #8 and definitely McGrath from those bowling numbers as my #11. Toss up between Marshall and Ambrose for the #9 spot, maybe Marshall for the extra batting skill, with Murali following at #10.

 

[smash84]

Bowling - highest rating: 715 V Ind 1966. spent 19 of his 93 Tests (20.4%) rated above 650.
Best Simultaneous rating: 1651 v Ind 1966. (Batting-936, Bowling-715).[/B]
My analysis:

The key take out

That is the point that was raised earlier as well. The only team that he bowled well against was India. He played 18 tests against India and I have not looked it up but there might be a very good chance that out of the 19 matches where he crossed 650 the matches were against India many times.