Garry Sobers v Imran Khan,Test Cricket:Poll

[Sanz]

Those two are pretty much a fact to be honest

How is it a fact that Ambrose/Mcgrath are better than Imran as bowlers ?

 

[BlazeDragon]

How is it a fact that Ambrose/Mcgrath are better than Imran as bowlers ?

Better statistics (even without era adjustment) would be a good start.

 

[kyear2]

a. Sobers batting > imrans bowling
b. Sobers bowling < imrans batting
c. Sobers fielding > imrans fielding

this is how i see it. I would rate sobers higher because of his primary skill being better.

+1

 

[kyear2]

First let me say that Imran is in my All Time XI as a bowling all rounder because his batting is better than Hadlee's and he made the most of his abilities better than Miller. So obviously I rate and rank him very highly.

The classic definination of an all rounder is a primary batsman ( pos.1-6) who can, if or when required come on as a fifth bowler. A bowling all rounder who bats at 7/8, if you have a specialist batsman at 6, doesnt offer anything additional to the team as you may have added batting depth, but only 4 bowlers.

If you want to bat Imran at 6, then you have to compare him to Sobers as a batsman, because that is the role that he would be filling, a specialist batsman.
As the fifth bowler you cannot compare Sobers to Imran, because Imran is your strike/opening bowler, and being picked for that capacity.
Neither would make a strong test team in their secondary roles, but statistically Imran would get the nod here. In their primary roles Sobers is at worse the 4th best batsman of all time, Imran at best is just outside the top 5, but in the top 10. Advantage Sobers. Fielding is a no contest. Sobers here.
While Sobers was a lively opening bowler when required, he was not a strike bowler. Sobers started his career as a spin bowler, who soon after was called apon to open not only the bowling (as a pace bowler), but a batsman as well. Before Hall and Griiffith became one of the all time great partnerships, Sobers was forced into the role as opening bowler, and to further prove how weak the bowling options were, they were times where he opened the bowling with Frank Worrell, and both had to bowl torturously long spells where the emphasis was on economy not wicket taking. So for some time he was the teams best batsman and key opening bowler, a role only Keith Miller ever came close to filling, and for him it was his batting that suffered, for Sobers, it was his bowling. Imagine Kallis opening the bowling and having to hold down an end for the better part of the day. Sobers was at his best when he was partnered with Hall, Griffith and Gibbs, when he could come on first change and bowl his fast medium swingers, which were, from all accounts quite a handful. Lest we also forget he also bowled quite a bit of spin, and two types , which I believe he perceived was for the good of the team.

While Sobers performed both tasks for the duration of his career, Imran's batting only really came on when he was unable to bowl, and there is a perception that depending on the strength of the competition that he moved himself up or down the batting order to maximise his opportunity to score. He was a GREAT bowler, but in his own era behind Marshall and Hadlee, and some would say Lillee and Andy Roberts. He must receive credit for the advent/perfection of reverse swing, but that too in itself was for a time a sourse of speculation.
He is most often compared to Keith Miller, who was recognised as a superior batsman who because of his bowling work load and less that stellar application, never quite matched his potential. As a bowler he formed on of the All Time Great bowling partnerships with Lindwall and can be seen as Imran's bowling equal, and Miller himself said that unquestionably that Sobers was the greatest cricketer who ever lived. Thats good enough for me.

 

[smash84]

Ambrose, McGrath, Warne, Murali, Donald, Steyn, Wasim, Waqar and Pollock are all better than Imran as a bowler. FACT!

Haha it's certainly debatable but in no way is that a fact.

awta

First let me say that Imran is in my All Time XI as a bowling all rounder because his batting is better than Hadlee's and he made the most of his abilities better than Miller. So obviously I rate and rank him very highly.

The classic definination of an all rounder is a primary batsman ( pos.1-6) who can, if or when required come on as a fifth bowler. A bowling all rounder who bats at 7/8, if you have a specialist batsman at 6, doesnt offer anything additional to the team as you may have added batting depth, but only 4 bowlers.

awta that he gets the nod ahead of Hadlee usually because he was a better bat. I think there is something wrong with your classic definition of All Rounder. It is not that a player can come in as a fifth bowler but rather someone who can come in as a frontline bowler. A fifth bowler is not needed in many of the strong teams. Which brings us back to point that bowling all rounders seem more useful because everybody has to bat but not everybody has to bowl.

If you want to bat Imran at 6, then you have to compare him to Sobers as a batsman, because that is the role that he would be filling, a specialist batsman.
As the fifth bowler you cannot compare Sobers to Imran, because Imran is your strike/opening bowler, and being picked for that capacity.
Neither would make a strong test team in their secondary roles, but statistically Imran would get the nod here. In their primary roles Sobers is at worse the 4th best batsman of all time, Imran at best is just outside the top 5, but in the top 10. Advantage Sobers. Fielding is a no contest. Sobers here.

The part in bold does not make sense according to the classical definition which I pointed out above. Agree with the fielding part. Both were captains for a long time too. Captaincy?

While Sobers was a lively opening bowler when required, he was not a strike bowler. Sobers started his career as a spin bowler, who soon after was called apon to open not only the bowling (as a pace bowler), but a batsman as well. Before Hall and Griiffith became one of the all time great partnerships, Sobers was forced into the role as opening bowler, and to further prove how weak the bowling options were, they were times where he opened the bowling with Frank Worrell, and both had to bowl torturously long spells where the emphasis was on economy not wicket taking. So for some time he was the teams best batsman and key opening bowler, a role only Keith Miller ever came close to filling, and for him it was his batting that suffered, for Sobers, it was his bowling. Imagine Kallis opening the bowling and having to hold down an end for the better part of the day. Sobers was at his best when he was partnered with Hall, Griffith and Gibbs, when he could come on first change and bowl his fast medium swingers, which were, from all accounts quite a handful. Lest we also forget he also bowled quite a bit of spin, and two types , which I believe he perceived was for the good of the team.

Exactly. Sobers was not a strike bowler and not particularly good at taking wickets just as Imran was a solid batsman who could save matches but not particularly good at taking the attack to the opposition and take the game away from them. I did mention earlier that the only thing he adds to the team is versatility with his bowling but not good wicket taking prowess.

While Sobers performed both tasks for the duration of his career, Imran's batting only really came on when he was unable to bowl, and there is a perception that depending on the strength of the competition that he moved himself up or down the batting order to maximise his opportunity to score. He was a GREAT bowler, but in his own era behind Marshall and Hadlee, and some would say Lillee and Andy Roberts. He must receive credit for the advent/perfection of reverse swing, but that too in itself was for a time a sourse of speculation.
He is most often compared to Keith Miller, who was recognised as a superior batsman who because of his bowling work load and less that stellar application, never quite matched his potential. As a bowler he formed on of the All Time Great bowling partnerships with Lindwall and can be seen as Imran's bowling equal, and Miller himself said that unquestionably that Sobers was the greatest cricketer who ever lived. Thats good enough for me.

Agree with Miller regarding not living up to his potential however the fact that Imran did not perform with bat and the ball at the same time is somewhat misleading. Let's leave out the last 3 years of his career and take a look at some of the times that he performed well with both. He got seriously injured for 2-2.5 years at his peak and therefore could not bowl. Before and after that there were a number of series where he topped (or almost topped) with both bat and ball. In the whole of the 70s Imran literally came in as a tailender and he did not get much opportunity to bat. In the 80s whenever he did get the chance to bat he did quite well.

For the whole of 1980s Imran was arguably better than any fast bowler in the world (even Hadlee or Marshall).

I would also like to hear where this "perception" emerged from that he moved himself up or down the order to maximize his scoring opportunities? Imran himself was not the one to go after stats. Which was the best team in Sobers's time and what was his record against them? Which was the best team in Imran's time and his record against them? Imran rose to the occassion and the bigger the challenge the more he would push himself and his team. He hated losing and there may have been times where he went up or down the order but it seems quite disingenuous to suggest that it was because he wanted to boost his own record.

Besides even if you give the edge to Sobers in batting compared to Imran's bowling just how weak is his weaker suit? it is mind boggling as to how ineffective he could be at times. Just go and look at his record against Pakistan.
A bowling average of 113.5 and a SR of 356.2 spread over 8 test matches. That is NOT a good performance by any means.

 

[marc71178]

The classic definination of an all rounder is a primary batsman ( pos.1-6) who can, if or when required come on as a fifth bowler.

DWTA - it's one who is performing at a level that they'd make the team based on either discipline (even if they batted like Monty Panesar or bowled like Mohammed Sami). So good enough batsman to bat in the top 6 whilst good enough bowler to be considered front line.

 

[Sanz]

A bowling average of 113.5 and a SR of 356.2 spread over 8 test matches. That is NOT a good performance by any means.

And a batting avg. of 12 in SL ? Is that worthy of an allrounder ?

 

[smash84]

Can be understood for one bad series in a country. I won't say it is good but how the hell can you average 113.5 and strike at 356.2? I have NEVER seen such bowling figures on any one.

Btw I first dug up those stats against the claim that Sobers's bowling >> Imran's bowling. Just that these stats are so astounding that they make for fun reading

 

[honestbharani]

Can be understood for one bad series in a country. I won't say it is good but how the hell can you average 113.5 and strike at 356.2? I have NEVER seen such bowling figures on any one.

Btw I first dug up those stats against the claim that Sobers's bowling >> Imran's bowling. Just that these stats are so astounding that they make for fun reading

Did you NOT see India bowling to England this series?

 

[honestbharani]

Juz to clarify something, smileyshah, Tom Halsey never said Sobers was not good at getting wickets. He simply said that being an opening bowler PLUS the best batsman of his side was just getting on him and unlike some for whom their batting suffered, Sobers' bowling suffered as he was bowling with cutting down runs in mind than going all out and then have his batting suffer... He himself mentions that in the part just below what you bolded saying he was MUCH more effective and counted among the world's best (I got 3 books sent by SJS that proves this, all more a collection of articles than a single author opinion piece, from THAT era) as a fast medium bowler bowling first or second change. The Kallis comparison is very apt because he has pretty much always tried to maintain himself for his batting and only bowled LOTS when it was absolutely necessary and even then, if the oppo. were scoring big, his captains would sensibly opt to save him for his batting, as he would be required to bat and bat long.

 

[weldone]

A bowling average of 113.5 and a SR of 356.2 spread over 8 test matches. That is NOT a good performance by any means.

The man has a batting average of 90 against your team with a top score of 365*....was too tired after batting so much probably...so maintained an Economy Rate of 1.91 and let others do the wicket-taking job...

Edit: yeah, HB's point above, basically

 

[honestbharani]

I like that Ikki used Sobers' stats in Pak over 8 tests as a sample size. There is a certain Ricky Ponting whose record in India after 8 tests would force some to draw some conclusions, I am sure..


Smileyshah, where does Ponting rate, btw? I am curious because unlike Sobers bowling as an allrounder, Ponting was playing as a BATSMAN...

 

[smash84]

Did you NOT see India bowling to England this series?

I did and it was one of the worst bowling displays I have ever seen but I am still not sure if any of the Indian bowlers had a SR of 356.

Juz to clarify something, smileyshah, Tom Halsey never said Sobers was not good at getting wickets. He simply said that being an opening bowler PLUS the best batsman of his side was just getting on him and unlike some for whom their batting suffered, Sobers' bowling suffered as he was bowling with cutting down runs in mind than going all out and then have his batting suffer... He himself mentions that in the part just below what you bolded saying he was MUCH more effective and counted among the world's best (I got 3 books sent by SJS that proves this, all more a collection of articles than a single author opinion piece, from THAT era) as a fast medium bowler bowling first or second change. The Kallis comparison is very apt because he has pretty much always tried to maintain himself for his batting and only bowled LOTS when it was absolutely necessary and even then, if the oppo. were scoring big, his captains would sensibly opt to save him for his batting, as he would be required to bat and bat long.

Ok. Thanks for the clarification. It makes a bit of sense. Goes some way in explaining his bowling. However I also mentioned Kallis earlier in comparison with Sobers, why isn't he considered in the same league?

The man has a batting average of 90 against your team with a top score of 365*....was too tired after batting so much probably...so maintained an Economy Rate of 1.91 and let others do the wicket-taking job...

Edit: yeah, HB's point above, basically

This doesn't make sense. If he was so tired after averaging 90 with the bat why was he toiling 90 overs to get each wicket?

I like that Ikki used Sobers' stats in Pak over 8 tests as a sample size. There is a certain Ricky Ponting whose record in India after 8 tests would force some to draw some conclusions, I am sure..


Smileyshah, where does Ponting rate, btw? I am curious because unlike Sobers bowling as an allrounder, Ponting was playing as a BATSMAN...

I was thinking about Ponting when Sanz had mentioned Imran's average of 12 in SL

Tbf Ponting has come down a lot in my estimate since the end of the McWarne era.

 

[honestbharani]

I did and it was one of the worst bowling displays I have ever seen but I am still not sure if any of the Indian bowlers had a SR of 356.



Ok. Thanks for the clarification. It makes a bit of sense. Goes some way in explaining his bowling. However I also mentioned Kallis earlier in comparison with Sobers, why isn't he considered in the same league?



This doesn't make sense. If he was so tired after averaging 90 with the bat why was he toiling 90 overs to get each wicket?



I was thinking about Ponting when Sanz had mentioned Imran's average of 12 in SL

Tbf Ponting has come down a lot in my estimate since the end of the McWarne era.

about Kallis, quite simply he is not that good a batsman as Sobers, for me. End of.

 

[honestbharani]

And some more fun facts about Sobers Vs Pakistan:


he played EIGHT tests against them.. 5 in 57/58 and 3 in 58/59.. IN other words, ZILCH against them when he was at his prime as a bowler. And most probably, he was bowling his left arm orthodox which no one is claiming he was among the better exponents of...


And smileyshah, he DID NOT bowl 90 overs everytime against Pakistan. You are confusing his bowling strike rate with something else. As a matter of fact he bowled 1029 balls during the 5 test series and 369 balls in the 3 test series. An average of around 15 overs per innings if you conclude Pak batted twice in all the matches.. Hardly the stuff of a "main bowler" esp.given Windies meagre bowling resources at that point, esp. spinners, who are said to be more effective in Pakistan.

 

[Outswinger@Pace]

Over-utilisation of stats + Under-utilisation of perspective = Problems

 

[smash84]

Over-utilisation of stats + Under-utilisation of perspective = Problems

.....OSP you are a swell guy

 

[honestbharani]

Over-utilisation of stats + Under-utilisation of perspective = Problems

might try adding in bias and common sense to that equation to round it off..

 

[kyear2]

It all basically comes down to what do you prefer and which you see as more important, a specialist batsban at 6 who can perforn creditably as a 5th bowler, or playing only four bowlers, one of whom can bat a bit or play 5 spcialist bowlers, but essentially play a batsman short, which gives you a long tail.

A 5th bowlers job is to keep things tight while giveing the strike bowlers a rest and taking the ocasional wicket or breaking a key partnership. That is what Garry is and if he had been used effectively instead of being over bowled and placed into a role which he was clearly not suited, his stats would have fared much better. But he was a team man and a willing one at that.

Captaincy wise, he was better that given credit, and all of the negative views of his captaincy was based on one sporting declaration, which is the opposite of some of the overly conservative cricket we see today, and his inability to understand that everyone wwasn't as good as he was, that people could be trying their hardest but still failing. But strategically he was Imrans equal, be there no doubt. He understood the game better than most and was a very under rated captain.

 

[The Sean]

Two of the top four cricketers in the history of the game for mine. I'd rank Sobers just ahead, but there's bugger all in it and both men make my all time World XI.