Rank your Top 20 Bowlers of the modern era

[Jacknife]

Pathetic arguments are made here for Warne and Ashes

Not surprised.

Oh really, please tell.

Looks like you've just deleted your post, eh. 'Go cry', well that says it all.

 

[Jacknife]

Oh really, please tell.

waat?

What are these 'pathetic arguments' that are being made about Warne and The Ashes?

 

[vcs]

Oh okay so what Australia got out in the world cup at the quarter finals I mean it is only 3 ODI matches from there to the finals. So their world cup loss is justifiable because they made it up by winning the ODI series 3-0 against Bangladesh.

That is some fantastic use of logic right there.

Yeah sure Sri Lanka is the only countries that care about their away series. To other countries they are just a waste of time.

Well done, straw man genius.

 

[vcs]

I think vcs is saying that winning is universally desired by all. I do agree with you though. Whilst winning is still winning, some of the stakes (especially old rivalries) go beyond just the game of cricket and getting a result.

This sounds pretty similar to the "Tendulkar has to deal with the pressure of a billion expectations" bull**** that (rightly) gets dismissed as, well, bull**** around here. It's a credit to him that he keeps his head amidst all that adulation, yes. It doesn't put him above batsmen of similar achievements though, because it's not their fault they weren't born in India with a billion people drooling over them. Similar arguments apply here.

 

[Ikki]

I think it's different and I'll tell you why. The people who generally put forward that idea seem to think that hard numbers (billions vs millions) really matters - as if what Tendulkar is going through is unique. But it isn't and, worse still, how can that actually be gauged and even compared?

The Ashes are unique, though. So is a series between India vs Pakistan. Or Brazil vs Argentina in football and many such rivalries elsewhere. And by unique I don't mean that other countries don't have rivalries, I mean those two have a rivalry unique to themselves. There exists no such paradigm when Sri Lanka take on England.

Also, on the Tendulkar example; I find it humourous for people to bring it up as if it is so bad. The huge majority love the guy. He could average 10 for the next 5 years and people will still hail him to the heavens.

 

[vcs]

Again, all that is true, but my point was that those things are not under a player's control so there's no point bringing them in while strictly comparing players' performances against similar standard of opposition.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Also, on the Tendulkar example; I find it humourous for people to bring it up as if it is so bad. The huge majority love the guy. He could average 10 for the next 5 years and people will still hail him to the heavens.

Yeah, right You have absolutely no idea . The man was booed off his home ground during his slump, FFS.

 

[Ikki]

Yeah, right You have absolutely no idea . The man was booed off his home ground during his slump, FFS.

So how does that refute what I said? That some booed him at the ground? I am aware he has his detractors, but let's be honest; the guy is almost a deity there. The idea that Tendulkar would only be loved if he performed maybe existed when he was young; not so much for a long time now.

Again, all that is true, but my point was that those things are not under a player's control so there's no point bringing them in while strictly comparing players' performances against similar standard of opposition.

I don't see why it's relevant in this case. There's more pressure for one than the other and it makes sense to adjust how we gauge their performances based on this. Again, this is similar to what ankit was saying re regular ODIs being the same as a WC final if the opposition is the same. If player X and Y both faced country A, one in a regular ODI and one in a final, it'd be disingenuous to ignore the difference IMO.

I can see your point, and it is logical, but I simply don't agree with it. I think the mental/emotive side of sports gets lost on some people.

 

[ankitj]

This sounds pretty similar to the "Tendulkar has to deal with the pressure of a billion expectations" bull**** that (rightly) gets dismissed as, well, bull**** around here. It's a credit to him that he keeps his head amidst all that adulation, yes. It doesn't put him above batsmen of similar achievements though, because it's not their fault they weren't born in India with a billion people drooling over them. Similar arguments apply here.

Precisely what I wanted to say, but didn't bother. Tendulkar has to deal with pressure of a billion is outright bull****. Extending it to anyone else is no different.

 

[vcs]

No, there's a lot more difference between regular ODI/WC final and Test match/Ashes Test match. The two performances should be dealt with on merit alone. Like I said, you might as well directly say "I penalize Murali's performance because he was not born in Australia".

 

[G.I.Joe]

So how does that refute what I said? That some booed him at the ground? I am aware he has his detractors, but let's be honest; the guy is almost a deity there. The idea that Tendulkar would only be loved if he performed maybe existed when he was young; not so much for a long time now.

It only doesn't seem to exist now because he's performing damn well. If he hadn't turned around that slump - which wasn't a long time back - he'd have faced much worse. There were already shrill calls to get rid of the man.

 

[Ikki]

No, there's a lot more difference between regular ODI/WC final and Test match/Ashes Test match. The two performances should be dealt with on merit alone. Like I said, you might as well directly say "I penalize Murali's performance because he was not born in Australia".

You might, but being born in Australia is not the point. Performing under more pressure is - hence the WC final and regular ODI example. There is a history between the two nations, especially in cricket, and to deny it is, as aforesaid, disingenuous IMO. It isn't just the same as any other Test to Australians.

It might not be fair on Murali to not get to experience that rivalry but it's also not fair on Warne that the pressure of winning an Ashes series is much greater than any other series. More kudos to him for dealing with it and thriving.

It only doesn't seem to exist now because he's performing damn well. If he hadn't turned around that slump - which wasn't a long time back - he'd have faced much worse. There were already shrill calls to get rid of the man.

He was deified well before his slump, it didn't just happen in the past 2-3 years.

The idea that Tendulkar has had the pressure to perform almost all the time at the risk of instantly losing his popularity is not very believable to me. As some called for his head, others (far more of them) were defending his record. Heck, you just have to read around on Cricinfo or many other boards where fans are still mocking Chappell for saying Tendulkar should've call it a day, at a time when he was averaging 30s for quite a while too - so a perfectly reasonable opinion at the time. Yet people can't let it go to this day because, shock horror, Chappell called it for what it was.

 

[vcs]

You might, but being born in Australia is not the point. Performing under more pressure is - hence the WC final and regular ODI example. There is a history between the two nations, especially in cricket, and to deny it is, as aforesaid, disingenuous IMO. It isn't just the same as any other Test to Australians.

It might not be fair on Murali to not get to experience that rivalry but it's also not fair on Warne that the pressure of winning an Ashes series is much greater than any other series. More kudos to him for dealing with it and thriving.



He was deified well before his slump, it didn't just happen in the past 2-3 years.

The idea that Tendulkar has had the pressure to perform almost all the time at the risk of instantly losing his popularity is not very believable to me. As some called for his head, others (far more of them) were defending his record. Heck, you just have to read around on Cricinfo or many other boards where fans are still mocking Chappell for saying Tendulkar should've call it a day, at a time when he was averaging 30s for quite a while too - so a perfectly reasonable opinion at the time.

I have mentioned before that Murali has to deal with a very different kind of pressure.. carrying a weak attack, and single-handedly taking SL to whatever Test victories they have scraped overseas. And this applies to pretty much every Test he played, especially away from home where Vaas wasn't as good. It all evens out.

 

[G.I.Joe]

He was deified well before his slump, it didn't just happen in the past 2-3 years.

The idea that Tendulkar has had the pressure to perform almost all the time at the risk of instantly losing his popularity is not very believable to me. As some called for his head, others (far more of them) were defending his record. Heck, you just have to read around on Cricinfo or many other boards where fans are still mocking Chappell for saying Tendulkar should've call it a day, at a time when he was averaging 30s for quite a while too - so a perfectly reasonable opinion at the time. Yet people can't let it go to this day because, shock horror, Chappell called it for what it was.

Yes, there were people defending his position in the team, but that makes no indication of whether they were in the majority, or whether they were even the most forceful of voices. The media here was plenty harsh on him, newspapers had a field day with headlines of 'Endulkar' and the like. You're confusing your issues. Sitting down there, you don't realise what Tendulkar had to deal with up here. The internet isn't everything.

 

[Ikki]

I have mentioned before that Murali has to deal with a very different kind of pressure.. carrying a weak attack, and single-handedly taking SL to whatever Test victories they have scraped overseas. And this applies to pretty much every Test he played, especially away from home where Vaas wasn't as good. It all evens out.

I agree and disagree. He carries the attack, but how does that relate? He can take wickets, his team lose and he's still done his job. The SL he inherited was pretty much a minnow, winning a series itself was a big deal - failure was relatively normal. If this was football, I could see your reasoning. But this is cricket, it is a team game based on 1v1s.

Such a thing didn't exist for Warne or other Aussies in the last 2 decades. They shared the load, but such was the expectation on them that people (fans and pundits alike) truly thought they should win almost every match they play. If they didn't, there were inquisitions. There was also so much talent at the time outside the team that all-time greats and potential all-time greats were dropped from the side for failing to hit the ground running or losing form for a short period of time. Heck, we're still not as good as we are, yet the expectations are still crippling - see Katich.

 

[vcs]

I agree and disagree. He carries the attack, but how does that relate? He can take wickets, his team lose and he's still done his job. The SL he inherited was pretty much a minnow, winning a series itself was a big deal - failure was relatively normal. If this was football, I could see your reasoning. But this is cricket, it is a team game based on 1v1s.

Such a thing didn't exist for Warne or other Aussies in the last 2 decades. They shared the load, but such was the expectation on them that people (fans and pundits alike) truly thought they should win almost every match they play. If they didn't, there were inquisitions. There was also so much talent at the time outside the team that all-time greats and potential all-time greats were dropped from the side for failing to hit the ground running or losing form for a short period of time. Heck, we're still not as good as we are, yet the expectations are still crippling - see Katich.

Do you really think Murali will be happy that he's done his job as long as his team keeps losing? His performance resulted in a drawn series away from home. That's a huge result for Sri Lanka! Of course the pressure would have been on him. It's just a different kind of pressure, that's all. You need to look at it from another point of view.

 

[Ikki]

Yes, there were people defending his position in the team, but that makes no indication of whether they were in the majority, or whether they were even the most forceful of voices. The media here was plenty harsh on him, newspapers had a field day with headlines of 'Endulkar' and the like. You're confusing your issues. Sitting down there, you don't realise what Tendulkar had to deal with up here. The internet isn't everything.

TBF, what he went through was nothing new to any other player of similar repute.

I feel you've missed my point; "The idea that Tendulkar has had the pressure to perform almost all the time at the risk of instantly losing his popularity is not very believable to me."

If Tendulkar was under far more pressure than others due to the far more numerous Indian fans, then he should have also come into criticism far earlier and it should have been far more deafening.

The reality is he got the same reaction as any other great batsman. IMO he still held enough popularity to leave that decision to himself to retire or not- I couldn't see the selectors EVER dropping him for fear of the backlash. I don't think he could ever get that much power if he were Australian.

Which is not to say that the would have been dropped if he were Australian - I just don't think they'd fear dropping a star/all-time great anything close to the Indians, and that is precisely because Tendulkar is so popular.

 

[Ikki]

Do you really think Murali will be happy that he's done his job as long as his team keeps losing? His performance resulted in a drawn series away from home. That's a huge result for Sri Lanka! Of course the pressure would have been on him. It's just a different kind of pressure, that's all. You need to look at it from another point of view.

I think Murali is a champion and he'll keep trying no matter what to win. But it's simply not the same pressure as what I described for a team like the one Australia were these past 2 decades - which is not just any #1 team, but one of the greatest sides of all time.

And this is a very real factor, it's not airy fairy; oh the millions of Australians won't love us anymore. It is: don't win and you may be dropped - you might not get a next series to make it up. That's a whole different world of pressure. The result may be huge for SL, but not getting it also isn't that big of a deal. Converse for Warne and co - expected to win, lose and there is hell to pay.

I understand what you are saying, but I wouldn't be arguing for Murali's position on these grounds. I'd argue that it is much more difficult to keep your standards high when everyone around you is so mediocre and that by being in a great side you're easily motivated to push yourself recognising the standards around you. But it also means that the guys who do stay in such a fantastic side for so long are very special.

 

[smash84]

I think Murali is a champion and he'll keep trying no matter what to win. But it's simply not the same pressure as what I described for a team like the one Australia were these past 2 decades - which is not just any #1 team, but one of the greatest sides of all time.

And this is a very real factor, it's not airy fairy; oh the millions of Australians won't love us anymore. It is: don't win and you may be dropped - you might not get a next series to make it up. That's a whole different world of pressure. The result may be huge for SL, but not getting it also isn't that big of a deal. Converse for Warne and co - expected to win, lose and there is hell to pay.

I understand what you are saying, but I wouldn't be arguing for Murali's position on these grounds. I'd argue that it is much more difficult to keep your standards high when everyone around you is so mediocre and that by being in a great side you're easily motivated to push yourself recognising the standards around you. But it also means that the guys who do stay in such a fantastic side for so long are very special.

Yes but how can you say which pressure is greater? Tbh the pressure on Tendulkar to perform every time (i.e. the weight of expectations) sounds quite similar to the pressure on the Aussies to perform every time.

Also it might well be argued that cricket is not easily the major sport in Australia (I think) or at least there are viewers of other sports but in India and Pakistan there is literally no other national sport that can compete with cricket therefore cricket in India-Pakistan-SL means a lot more to a greater proportion of the public than in England-Australia hence greater public scrutiny and pressure on the players.

 

[hang on]

The result may be huge for SL, but not getting it also isn't that big of a deal. Converse for Warne and co - expected to win, lose and there is hell to pay.

that would explain why ponting's been playing badly for a couple of years at least, losing, and still in the team. seem to remember that talk of tendulkar retiring was pretty strident when he was out of form a few years back.