Why can't India produce great fast bowlers like Pakistan?

[shankar]

Very interesting O@P. But we see national selectors fast-tracking bowlers for the national team even if they are somewhat quick (by Indian standards). What might explain the contradiction between this policy and the domestic level? Do you know of players from other parts of the country who had a similiar experience?

 

[silentstriker]

This is a subject very close to my heart. As a guy who was involved heavily in the club, U-17 and U-19 levels in India, I believe that I have a reasonable understanding of the subject. This is going to be a bit of a rant (under some influence), so read further at your own peril.

Fast bowling, as an art, is poorly understood in India, IMHO. Dennis Lillee sums it up aptly when he says that "medium-pacers who bowl a good line and length and get their five wickets" are preferred over quick bowlers with potential.

Goughy (a CW poster that I highly respect) and other experts would tell you that for bowling genuinely quick the basic ingredients have to be there. A reasonable atheletic coordination, a fair ratio of fast twitch: slow twitch fibre muscles and an ability to go through the pain barrier better than the average athelete on the street. I was fortunate in that I inherited good genes and coming from a background of atheletics and martial arts, I was failry athleletic as a teenager (then).

I am posting under the influence of half a litre Jack Daniel's here, so I'd let myself go a bit! As a guy who moved from a background of mountaneering and long-distance running to cricket at 15 years of age, I believed I had the basic raw material to make a reasonable fast bowler. I was from the Himalayan region of Garhwal (in northern India) and honed my modest cricketing skills in the western Indian town of Vadodara.

It was a bit tough managing my education in the science stream (and later engineering) with cricket, but I made some progress. Anyone who has studied in India would know that it's not the easiest job in the world to strike this balance. I was an out-and-out quick since the time I was 15, but the uneasy perception I always had was that a more "conventional" medium-pacer would be preferred over me. The fact that I was a pahari playing club cricket in the province of Gujarat didn't exactly help my case either.

Bowling quick in India is more of a psychological challenge than a physical one, IMHO. There were coaches and Ranji-players who told me that I had no future even before I bowled my first ball in the match. My cardinal sin was that I focussed in being a genuinely fast, strike bowler rather than one who could jam it in good areas to contain the batsmen. As a strong-headed, rebellious teenager, I wasn't one that would fit into the the mould easily, so to speak. I was quick and I could swing them (chiefly away) to give the batsmen a workover, but I never learnt the art of bowling to contain. Every ball was delivered with the sole purpose of getting them out. Regardless of the match condition.

I had a rather good couple of years in the club scene in Baroda, but I wasn't comfortable with the way they (the establishment) viewed me. Even though I got wickets and managed to move into the U-17 (and later U-19) squad, I had the uneasy feeling that they were trying to mould me into something that I wasn't meant to be. A line-and-length medium pacer who could give a decent return in the 30-over matches. My 7-0-35-3 sort of figures weren't exactly favoured by the men in charge.

Besides, there was always a discouragement at bowling quick at "established" batsmen. They'd kill your aggressive streak even before you're old enough to realise that you possess one. There was an occasion where my mate and I bowled a series of sharp, short-pitched stuff at a Baroda Ranji player (the man averaged 45 in f/c cricket) and we were taken off because the batsman wasn't getting to "practise his shots" in the way that he should.

It dawned on me gradually that being a medium-pacer in the Baroda club scene basically meant being a "bitch" for the batsmen (excuse the language) and that's something I never took kindly to. I managed to make a career out of my other love - engineering - but sometimes, I can't help get a feeling that with a little perseverence I could have done ok in cricket. Ah, well! Life's an expereince and you live on to learn and grow with each day.

I'm from Baroda as well, and aside from the fact that most actually good players out in the communities never even make it near the official Baroda club (no logical structure), there is certainly a lot of what you mention even when you make it.

 

[Anku31]

In India they ask you to bowl line & length.Pace is something they consider every strong man can have.But the fact is that in Pakistan they allow a bowler to be up to himself & bowl as fast as he can.They work on his line & length side by side.That's why average looking people like Wahab Riaz can also bowl 140-145.But in India,you should be 6ft 4in Ishant Sharma to touch 140.

 

[Top_Cat]

Yeah but, in fairness, bowling your bollocks off in hot conditions and on spongy decks ain't bowling to the conditions. Adelaide has a similarly dry, hot climate and produces many of the same sorts bowlers in grade cricket. Very few out-and-out speedsters have done well here over the years and those that have usually have something unusual or quirky about them or reduce their pace and bowl a solid line. Busting a gut in Adelaide = many days of 0/100.

 

[Anku31]

But still if you look at the background of Asif,Aamir,Riaz,not very rich or from very developed parts of Pakistan.But the fact is that up to a certain age they were their own masters & were bowling their heart out themselves before they must have joined any club.They must have become FC ready become joining a club! That's the difference.That's why we see a lots of 17 or 18 year debutant bowlers for Pakistan.They hardly need any time in the clubs to be ready for the top level.
Even in India,fast bowlers have come from smaller or underdeveloped cities.Zaheer was from Srirampur,Praveen from Meerut,Munaf from a Gujarat village,Irfan from Baroda.Mumbai has only given us great batsmen!

 

[chicane]

Yeah but, in fairness, bowling your bollocks off in hot conditions and on spongy decks ain't bowling to the conditions. Adelaide has a similarly dry, hot climate and produces many of the same sorts bowlers in grade cricket. Very few out-and-out speedsters have done well here over the years and those that have usually have something unusual or quirky about them or reduce their pace and bowl a solid line. Busting a gut in Adelaide = many days of 0/100.

That makes sense but don't quicks in Pakistan face the same? Yet they mass produce 90mph bowlers. The major influence is probably the system.

 

[smash84]

so let me get this straight, smalishah is female?

i confess i didn't know that was the case, if indeed it is.

hmmm I see that there are lots of misconceptions going around about me

 

[Top_Cat]

That makes sense but don't quicks in Pakistan face the same? Yet they mass produce 90mph bowlers. The major influence is probably the system.

Fair and not sure why (physical reasons too?). Isn't Pakistan more humid than India? Hard to generalise, though, as far as I'm aware there's huge variation in the seasons depending on where you are.

 

[vcs]

Great post, Outswinger@Pace.

 

[smash84]

This is a subject very close to my heart. As a guy who was involved heavily in the club, U-17 and U-19 levels in India, I believe that I have a reasonable understanding of the subject. This is going to be a bit of a rant (under some influence), so read further at your own peril.

Fast bowling, as an art, is poorly understood in India, IMHO. Dennis Lillee sums it up aptly when he says that "medium-pacers who bowl a good line and length and get their five wickets" are preferred over quick bowlers with potential.

Goughy (a CW poster that I highly respect) and other experts would tell you that for bowling genuinely quick the basic ingredients have to be there. A reasonable atheletic coordination, a fair ratio of fast twitch: slow twitch fibre muscles and an ability to go through the pain barrier better than the average athelete on the street. I was fortunate in that I inherited good genes and coming from a background of atheletics and martial arts, I was failry athleletic as a teenager (then).

I am posting under the influence of half a litre Jack Daniel's here, so I'd let myself go a bit! As a guy who moved from a background of mountaneering and long-distance running to cricket at 15 years of age, I believed I had the basic raw material to make a reasonable fast bowler. I was from the Himalayan region of Garhwal (in northern India) and honed my modest cricketing skills in the western Indian town of Vadodara.

It was a bit tough managing my education in the science stream (and later engineering) with cricket, but I made some progress. Anyone who has studied in India would know that it's not the easiest job in the world to strike this balance. I was an out-and-out quick since the time I was 15, but the uneasy perception I always had was that a more "conventional" medium-pacer would be preferred over me. The fact that I was a pahari playing club cricket in the province of Gujarat didn't exactly help my case either.

Bowling quick in India is more of a psychological challenge than a physical one, IMHO. There were coaches and Ranji-players who told me that I had no future even before I bowled my first ball in the match. My cardinal sin was that I focussed in being a genuinely fast, strike bowler rather than one who could jam it in good areas to contain the batsmen. As a strong-headed, rebellious teenager, I wasn't one that would fit into the the mould easily, so to speak. I was quick and I could swing them (chiefly away) to give the batsmen a workover, but I never learnt the art of bowling to contain. Every ball was delivered with the sole purpose of getting them out. Regardless of the match condition.

I had a rather good couple of years in the club scene in Baroda, but I wasn't comfortable with the way they (the establishment) viewed me. Even though I got wickets and managed to move into the U-17 (and later U-19) squad, I had the uneasy feeling that they were trying to mould me into something that I wasn't meant to be. A line-and-length medium pacer who could give a decent return in the 30-over matches. My 7-0-35-3 sort of figures weren't exactly favoured by the men in charge.

Besides, there was always a discouragement at bowling quick at "established" batsmen. They'd kill your aggressive streak even before you're old enough to realise that you possess one. There was an occasion where my mate and I bowled a series of sharp, short-pitched stuff at a Baroda Ranji player (the man averaged 45 in f/c cricket) and we were taken off because the batsman wasn't getting to "practise his shots" in the way that he should.

It dawned on me gradually that being a medium-pacer in the Baroda club scene basically meant being a "bitch" for the batsmen (excuse the language) and that's something I never took kindly to. I managed to make a career out of my other love - engineering - but sometimes, I can't help get a feeling that with a little perseverence I could have done ok in cricket. Ah, well! Life's an expereince and you live on to learn and grow with each day.

gun post.............a genuine quick that never was

Fair and not sure why (physical reasons too?). Isn't Pakistan more humid than India? Hard to generalise, though, as far as I'm aware there's huge variation in the seasons depending on where you are.

yeah there is a huge variation in seasons. The punjab area in Pakistan produces the most fast bowlers Wasim, Waqar, Imran, Shoaib etc and the temperature range is from 0 degress celsius in the winters to 50 degrees celsius in the summer. Punjab is not humid at all except in the rainy season

 

[GIMH]

yeah ofcourse it was ball tampering by Wasim,Waqar and Imran but when Simon Jones and Flintoff got it reversing by the 10th over during Ashes 05 it was their skills and Troy Cooley's hardwork.

+1

+2

plus 3.

Well done on arguing with something that wasn't said.

 

[Blaze 18]

I think you're being naive if you don't think ball tampering had a role to play in the Pakistani bowlers bowling the way the did.

Before anyone jumps on me for that post, provided you're not using foreign objects on the ball such as bottle tops, I don't actually have a problem with ball tampering.

Even if they did tamper with the ball on occasion, it still doesn't explain the ridiculous amount of success they had. I wonder why the likes of Mohammad Sami bombed so spectacularly, if a few scratches on the ball is all it takes to ensure success in test cricket?

Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis were prodigiously skilled bowlers, and I (and most people, I suspect) would attribute their success to that rather than unfounded allegations of ball tampering.

 

[smash84]

Even if they did tamper with the ball on occasion, it still doesn't explain the ridiculous amount of success they had. I wonder why the likes of Mohammad Sami bombed so spectacularly, if a few scratches on the ball is all it takes to ensure success in test cricket?

Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis were prodigiously skilled bowlers, and I (and most people, I suspect) would attribute their success to that rather than unfounded allegations of ball tampering.

Imran says the same thing towards the end of this video

YouTube - ‪Imran Khan on Scratching the Cricket Ball.‬‏

That in county cricket he would be swinging the ball from one end and his other county mates just couldn't.

 

[Howe_zat]

Even if they did tamper with the ball on occasion, it still doesn't explain the ridiculous amount of success they had. I wonder why the likes of Mohammad Sami bombed so spectacularly, if a few scratches on the ball is all it takes to ensure success in test cricket?

Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis were prodigiously skilled bowlers, and I (and most people, I suspect) would attribute their success to that rather than unfounded allegations of ball tampering.

The main reason why lots of cricket fans have no issues with ball tampering is that in order for it to work, you've still got to have the skills to take advantage. It's not a magic cheat-a-wicket, it's a method of helping the bowler a bit.

Fwiw I tend to fall on the side of "you should get away with whatever you can get away with."

 

[smash84]

The main reason why lots of cricket fans have no issues with ball tampering is that in order for it to work, you've still got to have the skills to take advantage. It's not a magic cheat-a-wicket, it's a method of helping the bowler a bit.

Fwiw I tend to fall on the side of "you should get away with whatever you can get away with."

haha......nice philosophy

 

[smash84]

Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis were prodigiously skilled bowlers, and I (and most people, I suspect) would attribute their success to that rather than unfounded allegations of ball tampering.

allegations of ball tampering were not always unfounded tbh

 

[chicane]

Fair and not sure why (physical reasons too?). Isn't Pakistan more humid than India? Hard to generalise, though, as far as I'm aware there's huge variation in the seasons depending on where you are.

yeah there is a huge variation in seasons. The punjab area in Pakistan produces the most fast bowlers Wasim, Waqar, Imran, Shoaib etc and the temperature range is from 0 degress celsius in the winters to 50 degrees celsius in the summer. Punjab is not humid at all except in the rainy season

Yeah but climate, physique, diet etc. are similar in Pakistan and large parts of India, but the difference in quick bowling resources is very large. Even just taking Punjab, lets see, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Zahid etc. vs VRV Singh, Gagandeep Singh and Manpreet Gony.

 

[Daemon]

Could anyone post a short list of players off the top of their heads who've gone to play CC and returned with a marked improvement in their bowling?

 

[smash84]

Yeah but climate, physique, diet etc. are similar in Pakistan and large parts of India, but the difference in quick bowling resources is very large. Even just taking Punjab, lets see, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Zahid etc. vs VRV Singh, Gagandeep Singh and Manpreet Gony.

I think it basically all boils down to heroes. Pakistan was not known for producing express bowlers before Imran Khan appeared on the scene. Fazal Mahmood and Khan Mohammad were medium to medium fast at best. After Imran came on to the scene every kid on the block wanted to run in and leap at the crease and bowl like Imran. That is where the legacy began. In India a similar phenomena can be observed after the coming of Gavaskar I suppose

 

[smash84]

Could anyone post a short list of players off the top of their heads who've gone to play CC and returned with a marked improvement in their bowling?

Imran, Wasim, Mushy,