Howsie
International Captain
How would you rate McCullum's world cup so far btw. I'm genuinely interested.
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*Official* Quarter Final 3 - New Zealand v South Africa
- Thread starter James
- Start date
Howsie
International Captain
No, we need to put him down the order because he's failing. If a batsmen like Watling or Redmond were to play 40 odd games over the last couple of years and put up numbers like McCullum has would they still demand a place in the team, of course not. They probably would not have even lasted as half as long.
He can? I mean he's played 190 matches and he's done it once.
Athlai
Not Terrible
Ignoring that his point was only about him in the top order and then ignoring despite Baz playing 190 matches he has batted in 160 odd.
Baz has opened the batting in 78 innings with 3 tons and 13 50s against all teams. Not great but not the worst in regards to international openers.
Now only against top teams that number will fall (though so will his innings batted)
Against the top 8 he has opened 60 times averaging 30 with a SR of 87. 1 hundred and 10 50s, not great by any means but other international openers would survive on similar figures. Particularly if they were the keeper too.
Under Vettori's captaincy he has opened 48 times against top teams and only loses 1 of those 50s he scored. His average going to 33 and SR to 89.
Baz just is never going to be a great batsman, I'm perfectly fine with what he gives to the team. If he fires then we're hard to stop (particularly when chasing). He wouldn't be doing anymore down the order than he would up it and personally I'd say he'd do significantly less.
Howsie
International Captain
You're right, he's never going to be a good batsmen, the guy has been playing ODI cricket for close to ten years now and he still has no idea on how to build an innings. You'd think by this time in his career those numbers would be improving but they're not, they're sliding pretty drastically. Since January 2009 he's had 41 innings, scored 1086 runs @ 26.4 while striking at just a touch over 80. Those numbers probably wouldn't see him making too many teams around the world.
smash84
The Tiger King
KiWiNiNjA
International Coach
You're going to discount the games against minnows, so I won't bother with them.
vs Australia - failed, but so did all the other batsman
vs Pakistan - failed, but so did the rest of the batsman except for Guptill and Taylor
vs Sri Lanka - failed, but so did all the other batsman
It's not like he has performed worse than the rest of the team. Yeah, not the best but it's only 3 games.
Yeah, because Watling or Redmond could put up those numbers.
Since he became an opener (2nd time around)
68 innings, 2290 runs @ 36.34 S/R 93.50, 3 100s 13 50s
taking out minnows
50 innings, 1598 runs @ 33.29 S/R 88.53, 1 100 10 50s
After he initially opened until he returned to open. (Dec 2002 - before Nov 2007)
Batting 5 and below (batted number 3 a couple of times, and opened for a series)
75 innings, 1436 runs @ 25.64 S/R 84.71, 0 100s 6 50s
taking out minnows
68 innings, 1270 runs @ 24.90 S/R 80.84, 0 100s 4 50s
Yep, all signs point to him being a better lower order bat.
You talk as if we have a world class opener being kept out of the side because of McCullum opening. Ryder is not the answer.
Also, only done it once? I will ignore the minnows, just for you.
Since he became an opener in 2007
81 (85) vs RSA - Nov 2007
96 (103) vs AUS - Dec 2007
80* (47) vs ENG - Feb 2008
77 (43) vs ENG - Feb 2008
71 (68) vs IND - Mar 2009
77 (95) vs IND - Mar 2009
131 (129) vs PAK - Nov 2009
76 (79) vs PAK - Nov 2009
Funny how one time turns into 8 times when you conveniently make a big score equate to more than 100. I'm sure Redmond, How and Watling could all put up those scores over 2 years.
Yeah, since that series against Pakistan he hasn't done much. But when you take away the minnows, all that is left is.
45 (43) vs AUS
24 (16) vs AUS
24 (16) vs AUS
23 (25) vs AUS
61 (75) vs AUS
1 (13) vs AUS
0 (1) vs IND
42 (42) vs IND
14 (10) vs IND
12 (13) vs PAK
16 (12) vs AUS
6 (3) vs PAK
14 (16) vs SRL
Hardly as abysmal as you're making out. Of course, there are half a dozen better options just sitting around in NZ domestic cricket who can do a better job.
TT Boy
Hall of Fame Member
1912.
KiWiNiNjA
International Coach
Funny how all of a sudden you aren't leaving out minnows.
Since January 2009
34 innings, 972 runs @ 28.58 S/R 82.58 1 100 4 50s
Also, making convenient time periods is awesome, aye.
If I pick stats of him opening from 8th March 2009 (excluding minnows)
25 innings, 808 runs @ 32.32 S/R 85.59 1 100 4 50s
So he had a crap period from January 2009 to March 2009, but you make it seem like he has been playing crap for a whole 2 years.
Great stuff!
Athlai
Not Terrible
I'd probably be more ready to detract Baz if he had given up the gloves in limited overs stuff but he hasn't so he is still a top quality player in the team.
This is our best #1-#5 batting lineup we've had in yonks and I reckon it'll come together quite well if Ryder stays fit and Guptill continues to play as he has been lately.
This is our best #1-#5 batting lineup we've had in yonks and I reckon it'll come together quite well if Ryder stays fit and Guptill continues to play as he has been lately.
Howsie
International Captain
So to some up, a big failure? Thank You.
I can't say I'm the biggest Aaron Redmond fan going around but I'd back him to at least get close to averaging 26.Yeah, because Watling or Redmond could put up those numbers.
I think you have me confused with somebody else because I'm not arguing for McCullum to go down the order because I think he'll perform better, I want him down the order because he's ****ing hopeless up the order.
Perhaps it's just me but a "big score" is usually 100+. That's just me maybe. When you have people saying someone in the top four needs to make a big score I don't know if they're talking about 70's though.
That averages out to 21.6, so yeah I think it is.
Howsie
International Captain
Clutching a straws here much? If you want to lump Bangladesh in with the likes of Kenya and Canada that's fine by me, but there is a big difference between playing a one off game against a team like Kenya and playing a series against Bangladesh.
Heh, right. That's exactly why I'm doing there. January 1st is such an obscure date.
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KiWiNiNjA
International Coach
A long with nearly every other batsman in those 3 games. Yet he has score runs against the minnows. In the game against Canada he outscored all those other batsman. But hey, we have to pretend that match never happened.
Ahh, so you wouldn't mind Redmond coming into the side averaging 26? Which is less than McCullum. McCullum also keeps so you would have to drop who? Styris/Franklin/NcCullum? All so that someone who in the best case scenario can do what a worst case McCullum can do.
Yeah, that works.
So you want him in a place where he is more hopeless?
But you said only one innings. So why didn't you count his 96? Because he missed out on your arbitrary point of greatness by 4 runs?
Oh noes, a poor run of scores over a selected period of time. Lets compare McCullum to other openers of recent times.
Jesse Ryder - 18 innings, 625 @ 36.76
Martin Guptill - 25 innings, 790 runs @ 35.90
BJ Watling - 2 innings, 57 runs @ 28.50
Aaron Redmond - 5 innings, 136 runs @ 27.20
Jamie How - 15 innings, 299 runs @ 19.93
Peter Ingram - 4 innings, 71 runs @ 17.75
Relatively it isn't that abysmal, tbh.
You could argue that Ryder and Guptill should be opening but to suggest that any of the others is better than a McCullum in decent nick is crazy.
Bahnz
Hall of Fame Member
McCullum has been disappointing as an opener in ODI's. Even when he's taken off, he usually soars to close to the sun and misses out on a truly match defining score. As an exercise, I've tried thinking of the number of times that McCullum has genuinely won us a game with his batting. By comparison Nathan Astle used to do this for us all the time, usually at least one match in every ODI series we played was won on the back of an Astle score.
With McCullum I really have to scratch my head. There was that series in Dubai where he made a couple of scores, probably his finest hour as an opener. But besides that, they're few and far between. Admittedly he's not alone in this respect. Guptill couldn't win us a match if his life depended on it. And Ryder has managed to put up a match winning score just once (against Pakistan earlier this year).
With McCullum I really have to scratch my head. There was that series in Dubai where he made a couple of scores, probably his finest hour as an opener. But besides that, they're few and far between. Admittedly he's not alone in this respect. Guptill couldn't win us a match if his life depended on it. And Ryder has managed to put up a match winning score just once (against Pakistan earlier this year).
KiWiNiNjA
International Coach
You can't just use them when you feel like. Leave them in or take them out, don't pick and choose.
Yeah, but you used that date and then said that he had been horrible that whole time. But in reality he played quiet well in the middle, and was out of form at the start and end of that period. I was just showing on easily you could be mislead by statistics.
Why 2009?
Since January 1st 2008
44 innings, 1370 runs @ 32.61
Anybody can do this with statistics. So what?
I'm interested in who you think should be opening, who comes out of the side to allow for that opener, and where McCullum should be batting.
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Bahnz
Hall of Fame Member
The obvious implication is that in more recent times, for whatever reason, McCullum's performances have been less impressive. You can do the same thing with his number from 2010 with even greater results. Once you remove his performance against the minnows in this world cup (you can leave Bangladesh in, if you like, though you should really only include them when the match is being played in Bangladesh as they're rubbish away from home), his average slumps to 17.9 from 24 innings.