• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Players that are the most overated by CW posters.

Migara

International Coach
He said FIRST PROFESSIONAL CAPTAIN
Putting things in big fonts show that th brain works in a small space. So what is the specialty of the first English captain compared to a captain who has a team with infighting (ex. Miandad)?
Oh, I ee, English captains should be greater than any other captain it seems.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Putting things in big fonts show that th brain works in a small space. So what is the specialty of the first English captain compared to a captain who has a team with infighting (ex. Miandad)?
Oh, I ee, English captains should be greater than any other captain it seems.
He was the first professional player, as opposed to gentleman amateur to captain England. So he was very much having to prove himself against established norms.

Like a less obvious version of what Worrell had to prove.

Javed just had to deal with a difficult team. He's not Robinson Cruesoe there.
 
Last edited:

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Putting things in big fonts show that th brain works in a small space. So what is the specialty of the first English captain compared to a captain who has a team with infighting (ex. Miandad)?
Oh, I ee, English captains should be greater than any other captain it seems.
Ask GIMH. It's he who claim so.
Oh I did, did I?

Let's retrace our steps. You quoted fredfertang (i,e. not me) and made a straw man argument, ignoring the fact that he wasn't citing captaincy as a reason for his high rating, but him being the first professional England captain.

Nowhere have I or anybody else claimed that being England captain is harder than being captain of anyone else. In fact I haven't been involved with the discussion at all, I just felt inclined to interject myself in your latest bout of ignorance. The reason I wrote it in a big font was because you ignored it when fred said it, and then ignored it when I responded to you.

C
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Your reasons 1 & 3 certainly have merit. Number 5 argument is nothing special. Waugh, Border, Ponting, Sangakkara, Lara, Richards all did it and averaged 50.

But losing best years to war is a logical fallacy. Because everybody lost that years, it was bowlers who lost more than batsmen. Bowlers tend to end by mid 30s while batsmen go up to late 30s. And after such a break where cricket was not layed much, bowlers will be in a much disadvantageous position than batsmen, because they have grown "more older" than batsmen in their careers. On contrary to popular belief old batsmen tend to boss old bowlers more than young batsmen to young bowlers. The sporting wickets would have been good post war, but the ability of a aged bowling units of oppositions has to be taken in to consideration.
I'll admit I'm not good on logic, tbh anything vaguely to do with science and maths is capable of baffling me very quickly, but I still think my point is relevant. Hammond, for example, also played Test cricket before and after the war but as he was 36 in 1939 I regard that as less significant on the basis I am assuming (but have no statistical evidence to back it up so I may be talking b*******) that a batsman's best year's are likely to be between ages 24-30, but in any event they will be better than 36-42 (I do know there are exceptions), and that accordingly the careers of the likes of Hutton and Compton suffered more from their enforced lay off than that of Hammond
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
Putting things in big fonts show that th brain works in a small space. So what is the specialty of the first English captain compared to a captain who has a team with infighting (ex. Miandad)?
Oh, I ee, English captains should be greater than any other captain it seems.


Congratulations.
 

Migara

International Coach
I'll admit I'm not good on logic, tbh anything vaguely to do with science and maths is capable of baffling me very quickly, but I still think my point is relevant. Hammond, for example, also played Test cricket before and after the war but as he was 36 in 1939 I regard that as less significant on the basis I am assuming (but have no statistical evidence to back it up so I may be talking b*******) that a batsman's best year's are likely to be between ages 24-30, but in any event they will be better than 36-42 (I do know there are exceptions), and that accordingly the careers of the likes of Hutton and Compton suffered more from their enforced lay off than that of Hammond
You are getting there bit by bit. I'd think batsmen's best years are some where between 25-35 but the value is not that important. Yes, and having that period lost to war has definitely reduced his average if others kept playing during that time, which did not happen. The point is that his opposition bowlers were at a much wose position than him due to the lay off. 20-30 we may expect batters and bowlers to do alike. But bowlers tail off significantly in the mid 30s than batsmen. So, a bowler of 36-42 is much worse than a batsman of that age due to "aging" in his career. And people like Hammond would have benefited from playing set of old unfit bowlers after the years of war (as I said earlier, it wasn not only him that as affected by the war)
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
You are getting there bit by bit. I'd think batsmen's best years are some where between 25-35 but the value is not that important. Yes, and having that period lost to war has definitely reduced his average if others kept playing during that time, which did not happen. The point is that his opposition bowlers were at a much wose position than him due to the lay off. 20-30 we may expect batters and bowlers to do alike. But bowlers tail off significantly in the mid 30s than batsmen. So, a bowler of 36-42 is much worse than a batsman of that age due to "aging" in his career. And people like Hammond would have benefited from playing set of old unfit bowlers after the years of war (as I said earlier, it wasn not only him that as affected by the war)
It is certainly remarkable how similar most counties' squads in 1946 were to the ones that they had in 1939 but that's the English for you - unfortunately for England Australia didn't operate like that and they had new blood with Miller, Lindwall and Johnston - if it hadn't been for Len Hutton in 46/47, 48 and 50/51, and indeed against two very fine West Indian sides in 50 and 53/54, England would have looked absolutely abject in the face of disaster - he really was a very special batsman - what I've read about his performance in this match almost makes me want to be a Yorkshireman (but not quite :) )
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Captaining England is umpteen times difficult. The ultimate god-given-truth. Yeah!
Migara, why do you persist in this line of posting, when all you are doing is repeating some mantra which no one other than you has sprouted? You ask a question, people respond to it. You plainly don't like the answer so you just make snarky comments like that.

No one has said anything like what you're putting in the post I've quoted. All they've done is suggest reasons why Hutton's contribution is an enormous one. Then you throw Javed Miandad about the place.

It makes having a discussion on this issue with you impossible, because you're actually not responding in any meaningful sense to what are quite reasonable points of view.

I'm also still waiting for your response from Saturday, when I asked you for your criticisms of Bradman as a player. The only response so far has been "So Bradman is a God is he?" It's impossible to take the discussion with you any further if that's all anyone gets as a response.
 
Last edited:

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
The problem when making the comparisons is that there are too many variables. We're talking about a guy who batted without helmets, in an era of lighter bats, against possibly worse bowlers, playing only a tiny number of test nations, in only a handful of test nations. No one for sure knows how fast those bowlers were bowling, or how good they were, or how much they turned the ball or how accurate they were because all accounts of this are either biased or inaccurate as the technology back then was simply not available.
Dispute this, tbh. The whole biased/inaccurate line of thinking applies really only to us punters. An 'expert' in the area will offer technical insight to a topic that us punters can't. I know former Test players often say things which are somewhat dodgy but it's usually when they venture outside of their area of expertise. Get a Test player from way back when to comment on a technical basis about these sorts of topic and you'll gain valuable insight and context no data collected could ever achieve.

Science is done routinely in this manner because, whilst numerical data is great if collected/analysed correctly, if the available measures are fuzzy, the likelihood of false conclusions is pretty high. Probably higher than the collective thoughts of experts from the time and relying on dodgy numbers to the exclusion of all other sources of information is, in my experience, the far more egregious error. An individual has fallibilities/biases, sure, but if you were to collect info from many individuals, you'd find a lot of those biases tend to smooth out. You just have to be realistic about the level of conclusions you can draw. A similar level of scepticism must be applied to numerical data, though.

The sheer amount of numerical data available these days on just about any topic you care to name has seemingly afforded it an air of infallibility and devalued other types of information. Anyone who subscribes to this could not be more wrong about a) the limitations of numerical data and analysis and b) the value gained from other types of info.

There is also no possible way to conclusively state whether pitches were flatter back then or not.
Fair but you can make defensible conclusions with certain caveats. What I'm saying is there's no need to be 100% about it to get a point across and there's a risk of paralysis by analysis.

It is possible to make an argument that, using statistics on a relative basis, Bradman is superior to every cricketer to play the game. However, there is no conclusive argument that states that Bradman would dominate the world of cricket today as he did in the 30s much like there isn't really a conclusive argument that Dinosaurs would rule the world if Jurassic Park happened.
Depends on your definition of 'conclusive'. Absolutely no science is conclusive to the exclusion of all other possibilities so demanding that level of proof would be pointless. There are going to be uncertainties to take into account, as it routine in any science.
 
Last edited:

tooextracool

International Coach
Dispute this, tbh. The whole biased/inaccurate line of thinking applies really only to us punters. An 'expert' in the area will offer technical insight to a topic that us punters can't. I know former Test players often say things which are somewhat dodgy but it's usually when they venture outside of their area of expertise. Get a Test player from way back when to comment on a technical basis about these sorts of topic and you'll gain valuable insight and context no data collected could ever achieve.

Science is done routinely in this manner because, whilst numerical data is great if collected/analysed correctly, if the available measures are fuzzy, the likelihood of false conclusions is pretty high. Probably higher than the collective thoughts of experts from the time and relying on dodgy numbers to the exclusion of all other sources of information is, in my experience, the far more egregious error. An individual has fallibilities/biases, sure, but if you were to collect info from many individuals, you'd find a lot of those biases tend to smooth out. You just have to be realistic about the level of conclusions you can draw. A similar level of scepticism must be applied to numerical data, though.

The sheer amount of numerical data available these days on just about any topic you care to name has seemingly afforded it an air of infallibility and devalued other types of information. Anyone who subscribes to this could not be more wrong about a) the limitations of numerical data and analysis and b) the value gained from other types of info.

This would work if every single variable can be statistically measured. The problem arises when there are certain variables that simply cant be numerically expressed. Is there a way to statistically summarize the flatness of the wickets? Is there a way to do the same with the quality of bowlers? Unfortunately, these variables are all relative and there is no way to represent them in the form that is required when comparing people across different eras where all of the variables have changed. x + y is not equal to a + b even if they both perform the same operation.

As far as experts are concerned, you can collect data from many people, that is true. But again, we are using this as a point of comparison. Comparing expert A's opinion about the quality of bowling from one era with Expert B's opinion in another is just as misguided. Furthermore, the human mind can never completely be devoid of biases, because the fact of the matter is that we all tend to see what we want to see and hence the opinions that we form as a result of our own sight were actually formed in our head well before we observed them. The point I am getting at is that the majority of experts will tend to pick the players that they played with or against as the top players of all time simply because they know more about them than any other player.



Fair but you can make defensible conclusions with certain caveats. What I'm saying is there's no need to be 100% about it to get a point across and there's a risk of paralysis by analysis.



Depends on your definition of 'conclusive'. Absolutely no science is conclusive to the exclusion of all other possibilities so demanding that level of proof would be pointless. There are going to be uncertainties to take into account, as it routine in any science.
Yes, I do agree with you on this. However, I think you may have misunderstood me. By any form of analysis Bradman is the best player of all time. What worries me though is that the majority of people on this forum are dismissive of anybody who even questions this analysis. Just like you say, no science is conclusive, which is why theories continually change. The world used to be flat, but now it isnt even round it is actually elliptical.
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
As far as experts are concerned, you can collect data from many people, that is true. But again, we are using this as a point of comparison. Comparing expert A's opinion about the quality of bowling from one era with Expert B's opinion in another is just as misguided. Furthermore, the human mind can never completely be devoid of biases, because the fact of the matter is that we all tend to see what we want to see and hence the opinions that we form as a result of our own sight were actually formed in our head well before we observed them. The point I am getting at is that the majority of experts will tend to pick the players that they played with or against as the top players of all time simply because they know more about them than any other player.
Don't have to be completely devoid of bias to get useful info, though. And you'd obviously base your research on more than one or two blokes. It'd be a combination of articles, collected statistics, interviews, etc. To build a case would take a lot of work.

Yes, I do agree with you on this. However, I think you may have misunderstood me. By any form of analysis Bradman is the best player of all time. What worries me though is that the majority of people on this forum are dismissive of anybody who even questions this analysis. Just like you say, no science is conclusive, which is why theories continually change. The world used to be flat, but now it isnt even round it is actually elliptical.
Yeah but there's a pretty practical reason for this; Bradman's batting average is > 4 (****ing) standard deviations above the mean for batting averages. In any field, that's going a bit beyond exceptional. > 2 in just about anything you care to name and it's an exceptional result which, whilst is not definitive (statistics, by its nature, doesn't attempt to be definitive), is generally considered to be beyond most measurement error/confidence interval overlap/etc.

Standard deviations are a crude measure but they're one of the first things used in a preliminary data analysis because it's amazing how often they turn out to roughly correspond with the way things are. It's why an IQ of 130 is considered 'genius' (average IQ = 100, std = 15, 2 std's away from 100 = 130). > 4 surely puts Bradman's case beyond just about all doubt regardless of any pitch/bowling quality comparisons and it gets better for him when you take out bowlers, guys who only played a few matches but scored a high average, etc. Be hard-pressed to make a case otherwise and I personally wouldn't even bother. Statistically, Bradman is ridiculous.

Science isn't definitive, sure. But some things are just so suggestive of the truth, you can confidently draw strong conclusions.
 
Last edited:

hang on

State Vice-Captain
the stats aspect referred to by topcat, along with the opinions of those who have played cricket and analyzed cricket for decades (benaud, being the best example), make it quite clear that bradman was, literally, sans pareil.

not to butt in or anything, but regarding the hutton captaincy thingy/argument, i must confess that i thought that migara was essentially saying that he didn't agree with the first professional captain factor in favour of hutton since other captains also had captaincy related stresses to deal with. ie being the first professional captain of england does not bring with it any more stress than, say, managing a truly fractious 'team' riven with infighting and the like. and, i tend to agree with that. not really a strawman argument since it was essentially a 'refutation' of a point even though he did not refer to the point in its entirety or quote it. but surely, from the context, even if not from the exact wording, it's clear enough.
 
Last edited:

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Although I can't see how it would be of any particular relevance to my view if he did - I was referring to Len Hutton qua Len Hutton - I wasn't seeking to make a comparison between him and any other batsman or group of batsmen nor was I saying that at their most basic level any of the specific points I originally made applied only to Hutton
 

hang on

State Vice-Captain
i know what u mean. but when your points are prefaced with second only to bradman....

quibbling a bit here but u know what i mean!
 

Top