Garry Sobers v Imran Khan,Test Cricket:Poll

[bagapath]

Somewhat disrespectful towards arguably the greatest captain the game saw.

No. Not true. Imran is in the running for greatest fast bowler and greatest all rounder titles. He may not win them but he will be a strong contender. He is certainly not a candidate for the greatest skoipper of all time. No way.

 

[hang on]

imran is as much in the running for greatest captain as he is for greatest allrounder and greatest fast bowler.

that is, not much!

i have rarely seen this level of admiration for imran in any discursive arena in absolutely yonks of cricket following. not even while he was playing! while the quality of debate and discussion on this forum is generally high, i think that there is a certainly level of overstating of his talents and abilities, with an almost revisionist element to it.

again, he is one of the greatest players to have played the game, would be in my top 15 players of all time, but as an allrounder he would be behind sobers and just a nose ahead of miller.

in terms of modern captains, border, lloyd, taylor would all be ahead of him.

in terms of fast bowlers, marshall, mcgrath, lillee, ambrose, at least one of the 2 Ws, donald, perhaps garner inter alia would all be ahead of him.

just my tuppence, certainly not gospel.

 

[archie mac]

Well...I was actually going for the opposite effect. So epic fail on my part then.

Sorry mate just my opinion

Somewhat disrespectful towards arguably the greatest captain the game saw.

you are kidding right??????????? posts like your one are the sort of things which should earn infractions

you would not have to go very far for an argument, I would not even have to leave my house for one

His record is nothing special, he had very good man management but was not the best tactician. Surely you would need to be in the top bracket in both those disciplines to be considered the best captain ever.

I should think Benaud, Chappelli, Lloyd and Brearley just to name a few are well in front of Imran on captaincy value

 

[smash84]

His record is nothing special, he had very good man management but was not the best tactician. Surely you would need to be in the top bracket in both those disciplines to be considered the best captain ever.

I should think Benaud, Chappelli, Lloyd and Brearley just to name a few are well in front of Imran on captaincy value

Depends on how much emphasis you put on man management and how much on tactics. If you can get your players to perform at another level with even average tactics you can get awesome results. However even with excellent tactics if you take out average performance from players I don't think that your results will be as great.

The guys that you mention here are not well in front of Imran considering the factors that Imran had to contend the with when he became captain. I have given my reasons to bagapath in the previous pages. The challenges that Imran had to overcome were far greater than any of the guys mentioned above with the possible exception of Brearly in this case.

 

[archie mac]

Depends on how much emphasis you put on man management and how much on tactics. If you can get your players to perform at another level with even average tactics you can get awesome results. However even with excellent tactics if you take out average performance from players I don't think that your results will be as great.

The guys that you mention here are not well in front of Imran considering the factors that Imran had to contend the with when he became captain. I have given my reasons to bagapath in the previous pages. The challenges that Imran had to overcome were far greater than any of the guys mentioned above with the possible exception of Brearly in this case.

No, if you want to be considered the best captain or as the post I replied to, the best ever, then surely you would have to have great man management and be great at tactics. Otherwise if you were only great at one then you would be a very good captain and not the best ever

I had the pleasue of watching all those I mentioned except Benaud and imo they were all clearly ahead of Imran when it came to tactics. Clive Lloyd had to bring a lot of different nations together and was the first to really make them gel, although Worrell was also a fine captain so I would think he had as many problems if not more to overcome then Imran had and his record is far superior.

Javed's record in Tests is better then that of Imran and while I consider Imran the better captain surely he is a long way off being the best ever when his record is not even the best amongst Pakistan leaders

 

[smash84]

No, if you want to be considered the best captain or as the post I replied to, the best ever, then surely you would have to have great man management and be great at tactics. Otherwise if you were only great at one then you would be a very good captain and not the best ever

I had the pleasue of watching all those I mentioned except Benaud and imo they were all clearly ahead of Imran when it came to tactics. Clive Lloyd had to bring a lot of different nations together and was the first to really make them gel, although Worrell was also a fine captain so I would think he had as many problems if not more to overcome then Imran had and his record is far superior.

Javed's record in Tests is better then that of Imran and while I consider Imran the better captain surely he is a long way off being the best ever when his record is not even the best amongst Pakistan leaders

how is Javed's record in tests superior? I hope you are not going by just the absolute number of wins and losses

 

[Blaze 18]

Results largely depend on the kind of team a captain has at his disposal. You can't just go by the win % or W/L ratio, surely. Otherwise Wasim Akram is Pakistan's best captain ever, and Ricky Ponting is the best captain of all time.

 

[smash84]

No, if you want to be considered the best captain or as the post I replied to, the best ever, then surely you would have to have great man management and be great at tactics. Otherwise if you were only great at one then you would be a very good captain and not the best ever

This is like saying that Wasim Akram is a better bowler than McGrath because McGrath could only bowl line and length but Wasim could bowl line and length and swing the ball both ways off the pitch and in the air

 

[archie mac]

how is Javed's record in tests superior? I hope you are not going by just the absolute number of wins and losses

When I say his record his superior what else do you think I meant?

I said Imran was the better captain so I think that means I do not just rate the results but if you are a great captain or the best ever you have to have a very good win loss record or you simply can't be the best ever.

Otherwise Trumper is better then Bradman because of his style stats alone can not be the answer but you can't have no stats

Imagine saying player A was the best ever captain but his record is no wins ten losses, just can't be the best

 

[archie mac]

This is like saying that Wasim Akram is a better bowler than McGrath because McGrath could only bowl line and length but Wasim could bowl line and length and swing the ball both ways off the pitch and in the air

No, one is taking wickets the other is captaining a team

But yes I think Wasim better than Mcgrath (just in case you were wondering)

 

[smash84]

Otherwise Trumper is better then Bradman because of his style stats alone can not be the answer but you can't have no stats

Imagine saying player A was the best ever captain but his record is no wins ten losses, just can't be the best

Yes but stats without context can be quite misleading e.g. Mohd Yousuf's 55 or so average looking better than Viv Richard's 50 if you only consider averages

 

[smash84]

:

But yes I think Wasim better than Mcgrath (just in case you were wondering)

 

[archie mac]

Yes but stats without context can be quite misleading e.g. Mohd Yousuf's 55 or so average looking better than Viv Richard's 50 if you only consider averages

Agree, not sure what we are arguing

 

[archie mac]

Just shows you I don't rate stats as the be all and end all but they still have a place when deciding who is better whether bowlers, batsman or captains.

Imran's record is not flash he only has the fact he was good at man management. Sorry not enough to put him in the top ten let alone the best ever imo

 

[smash84]

Agree, not sure what we are arguing

yeah i agree.........this is getting weird

so let's agree to disagree as mentioned previously by Bagapath.........I have a tough assignment due in an hour..........

 

[archie mac]

yeah i agree.........this is getting weird

so let's agree to disagree as mentioned previously by Bagapath.........I have a tough assignment due in an hour..........

Good luck mate

 

[salman85]

imran is as much in the running for greatest captain as he is for greatest allrounder and greatest fast bowler.

that is, not much!

i have rarely seen this level of admiration for imran in any discursive arena in absolutely yonks of cricket following. not even while he was playing! while the quality of debate and discussion on this forum is generally high, i think that there is a certainly level of overstating of his talents and abilities, with an almost revisionist element to it.

again, he is one of the greatest players to have played the game, would be in my top 15 players of all time, but as an allrounder he would be behind sobers and just a nose ahead of miller.

in terms of modern captains, border, lloyd, taylor would all be ahead of him.

in terms of fast bowlers, marshall, mcgrath, lillee, ambrose, at least one of the 2 Ws, donald, perhaps garner inter alia would all be ahead of him.

just my tuppence, certainly not gospel.

If you think Imran's ability is overstated around here,then your evaulation is exactly opposite.Depending on who you speak to,Imran,Lillee,McGrath,Wasim and Marshall could all qualify as the greatest fast bowlers ever.There isn't a lot to choose between them.Marshall perhaps edges it,but there is nothing to choose amongst the rest.Waqar was certainly not a better bowler than Imran.He might have been had his peak years not been ruined by Injury,but that is something we will never know now.

No. Not true. Imran is in the running for greatest fast bowler and greatest all rounder titles. He may not win them but he will be a strong contender. He is certainly not a candidate for the greatest skoipper of all time. No way.

Imran's captaincy is one of the things that makes him so great.So saying that there is no way that he is a candidate for the best captain ever is pretty shocking.He might not be the greatest captain ever,but he will definitley be a strong contender.

you are kidding right??????????? posts like your one are the sort of things which should earn infractions

you would not have to go very far for an argument, I would not even have to leave my house for one

His record is nothing special, he had very good man management but was not the best tactician. Surely you would need to be in the top bracket in both those disciplines to be considered the best captain ever.

I should think Benaud, Chappelli, Lloyd and Brearley just to name a few are well in front of Imran on captaincy value

I wasn't kidding.

Smaslishah has already mentioned the points which make Imran a great captain,and the reasons why i called him arguably the best captain ever.Correct me if i'm wrong,but i get the impression that you don't rate Imran that high tactically.Whereas there have been other tactically better captains,there has hardly been a better man manager than Imran.There is nothing to choose between Lloyd and Imran as far as man management goes.Imran the tactician was no novice either.It all depends on what mix you're going for - some captains were better tacticians than man-managers,and some were the other way around.I don't want to repeat the points smalishah mentioned,but the players that Imran captained,the individuals that he turned into world champions,the mere fact that Imran turned Pakistan into the only side that came close to beating the mightly West Indies of the 1980s are significant achievements.His win/loss ratio might not look as great as others,but there were a lot of other factors that made Imran a great captain.

Again,not saying that he was better than anyone the game saw.But he is right up there with the best the game saw.

Also,i think you mentioned somewhere that Miandad and Imran were the best captains Pakistan had.Slight correction here - Imran and Kardar were the best captains Pakistan had .

 

[archie mac]

Also,i think you mentioned somewhere that Miandad and Imran were the best captains Pakistan had.Slight correction here - Imran and Kardar were the best captains Pakistan had .

Don't think I said that

Certainly not what I think

 

[Maximus0723]

Greater percentage of the young folks here are going with Imran and so am I. I bet most of us haven't followed him live for majority of career. My assumption is that none of Salman or Smalishah have watched him live after developing necessary cognitive abilities to put reasonable judgement on his status. For players from 80s and before above statement applies to majority of the public here as well.

Most of these group's judgements come from reasoning facts/opinions from sources such as CW, internet, books, news, etc. Though I still wouldn't put a tag on them saying their opinions are better or worse than those of people who watched those players (from 80s and before) live.

Saying that I still slightly prefer stats over other accounts because stats are unbiased. In watching players no one has watched all the games. Most only know traits of other players outside of their team when those players play against their team.

Keeping above things in mind, for last 40 years, I would have Lloyd, Imran and Border in highest tier for captains. For me, leadership >> tactics.
In term of bowling, usually I have Marshall, McGrath and Hadlee before Imran and, Lillee, Roberts, Wasim, and Waqar after him.

I was going through an article on Imran Khan this morning and there was this statistic that caught my eye (I am sure most of you are already aware of this statistic) : Imran Khan averaged fifty-two with the bat and twenty with the ball as captain, over forty-eight tests. Now, most of you probably know by now that I am not fond of rating players based solely on their numbers, but those numbers are freaking awesome (almost Bradman-esque!).

That stat doesn't do much for me in terms of raising his level of greatness.

 

[archie mac]

Greater percentage of the young folks here are going with Imran and so am I. I bet most of us haven't followed him live for majority of career. My assumption is that none of Salman or Smalishah have watched him live after developing necessary cognitive abilities to put reasonable judgement on his status. For players from 80s and before above statement applies to majority of the public here as well.

Most of these group's judgements come from reasoning facts/opinions from sources such as CW, internet, books, news, etc. Though I still wouldn't put a tag on them saying their opinions are better or worse than those of people who watched those players (from 80s and before) live.

Saying that I still slightly prefer stats over other accounts because stats are unbiased. In watching players no one has watched all the games. Most only know traits of other players outside of their team when those players play against their team.

Keeping above things in mind, for last 40 years, I would have Lloyd, Imran and Border in highest tier for captains. For me, leadership >> tactics.
In term of bowling, usually I have Marshall, McGrath and Hadlee before Imran and, Lillee, Roberts, Wasim, and Waqar after him.



That stat doesn't do much for me in terms of raising his level of greatness.

If you only go by stats, how do you rate Imran a better captain then all of those with a better win ratio?

The intersting thing for me regarding Imran's great stats when he was captain, you would think if Javed had an Imran in that sort of form his record as captain would be even more impressive.