Garry Sobers v Imran Khan,Test Cricket:Poll

[Maximus0723]

good question. i want to see the spin bowling and wicket keeping captains that succeeded before imran as well.

Yea, AFAIK, b/c compared to batsman-captains there weren't many bowler-captains before Imran.

So I don't think it's fair to say "oh, he was the very first successful fast bowler captains"
This is if my first assumption is correct.

 

[Engle]

you are saying that just because no fast bowler has been successful as skipper over a long period. that doesnt mean fast bowlers cant be good skippers. there have not been too many great spin bowling captains too. so are you going to hand it to benaud? I bet you wont coz it doesnt suit your argument.

also, till 10,15 years ago, there were no great wk-skippers either. but we dont hold on to that opinion anymore since gilchrist, flower, sangakara and dhoni have all done a good/great job as skippers and keepers.

so stop praising imran for his bowling and his long hair and good looks when we are discussing something else.

i wish we stopped cooking up non-sensical reasons to build a case for a great cricketer. this is actually insulting the legacy of the great man.

You talk about God, specs, hair and good looks......and call my argument non-sensical ?
Do try and debate the argument without going all over the place.

My point stands : Of all the positions on a cricket team, the most difficult path towards captaincy is the fast bowler.

Batsmen are the easiest - They don't have the burden of bowling
Wicketkeepers are close to the action
Slow Bowlers do have a workload, but not as much as the...
Fast Bowler who has the most physically demanding job on the field. Asking someone to lead after a tiring spell is commendable indeed. Especially, if that person is also expected to bat well. It's quite a load.

You need to take a long walk and think before typing text.
I'm done with this argument, as I can foresee you'll go all over the place again.

 

[hang on]

the fatigue element is one reason why it might be difficult to be a fast bowling captain. however, i am not convinced that that is the main reason why there has been a relative dearth of fast bowling captains relative to captains who are batsmen.

the socioeconomics of cricket (including other demographic factors) need to also be considered. for example, in the not so distant past, the gentlemen generally batted while the miners and the blue collar chappies provided the brawn....obviously, the establishment wasn't going to let that sort end up being captain and represent the empire, now, were they! am being a bit flippant here, but the point stands.

on top of the class aspect, reinforced tropes of the sort that the psychology of the instinctive (brawn over brain) fastbowler was not conducive to the analysis of the ebb and flow of a game were also quite commonplace and served, rather well, to maintain the status quo on who did what, so to speak.

in places like india, spinners generally ruled the roost, and so there were very few fast bowlers from which to even have a captain.

just a few important points that need to considered along with the argument relating to the energy expenditure aspect of fast bowling as being the prime obstacle to the fast bowling and captaining thingy...

 

[smash84]

the fatigue element is one reason why it might be difficult to be a fast bowling captain. however, i am not convinced that that is the main reason why there has been a relative dearth of fast bowling captains relative to captains who are batsmen.

the socioeconomics of cricket (including other demographic factors) need to also be considered. for example, in the not so distant past, the gentlemen generally batted while the miners and the blue collar chappies provided the brawn....obviously, the establishment wasn't going to let that sort end up being captain and represent the empire, now, were they! am being a bit flippant here, but the point stands.

on top of the class aspect, reinforced tropes of the sort that the psychology of the instinctive (brawn over brain) fastbowler was not conducive to the analysis of the ebb and flow of a game were also quite commonplace and served, rather well, to maintain the status quo on who did what, so to speak.

in places like india, spinners generally ruled the roost, and so there were very few fast bowlers from which to even have a captain.

just a few important points that need to considered along with the argument relating to the energy expenditure aspect of fast bowling as being the prime obstacle to the fast bowling and captaining thingy...

awesome post. Quite insightful for me.

 

[bagapath]

I'm done with this argument

Good call. Never celebrated so much since she got her periods a week later.

 

[Blaze 18]

I was going through an article on Imran Khan this morning and there was this statistic that caught my eye (I am sure most of you are already aware of this statistic) : Imran Khan averaged fifty-two with the bat and twenty with the ball as captain, over forty-eight tests. Now, most of you probably know by now that I am not fond of rating players based solely on their numbers, but those numbers are freaking awesome (almost Bradman-esque!).

 

[smash84]

I was going through an article on Imran Khan this morning and there was this statistic that caught my eye (I am sure most of you are already aware of this statistic) : Imran Khan averaged fifty-two with the bat and twenty with the ball as captain, over forty-eight tests. Now, most of you probably know by now that I am not fond of rating players based solely on their numbers, but those numbers are freaking awesome (almost Bradman-esque!).

Mate if you want to look at some real awesome statistics check out these stats that came on the ESPN Legends of cricket. Awesome indeed.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/484478.html

 

[ankitj]

I was going through an article on Imran Khan this morning and there was this statistic that caught my eye (I am sure most of you are already aware of this statistic) : Imran Khan averaged fifty-two with the bat and twenty with the ball as captain, over forty-eight tests. Now, most of you probably know by now that I am not fond of rating players based solely on their numbers, but those numbers are freaking awesome (almost Bradman-esque!).

Yeah, that's an eye popping stat. You just cannot brush it aside, even if you are not a stat fan. Just as self-evidently freakish as Bradman's batting average.

 

[Blaze 18]

Mate if you want to look at some real awesome statistics check out these stats that came on the ESPN Legends of cricket. Awesome indeed.

Stats analysis: Imran Khan | Specials | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo

Great article.

Yeah, that's an eye popping stat. You just cannot brush it aside, even if you are not a stat fan. Just as self-evidently freakish as Bradman's batting average.

Agreed.

 

[Howe_zat]

For those who saw him play, what was Imran like as a tactician? It almost never seems mentioned as when people praise his captaincy, it is usually about his own performances and leadership.

 

[smash84]

For those who saw him play, what was Imran like as a tactician? It almost never seems mentioned as when people praise his captaincy, it is usually about his own performances and leadership.

Always attacking, trying to play aggressive cricket. He was always looking for wickets. Always asked Wasim and Waqar to go in and bowl quick and forget about the wides and no balls and the odd four ball. This is what I have been able to gauge listening to Wasim, Waqar, and Mushie talk about Imran's captaincy.

 

[Fusion]

For those who saw him play, what was Imran like as a tactician? It almost never seems mentioned as when people praise his captaincy, it is usually about his own performances and leadership.

Always attacking, trying to play aggressive cricket. He was always looking for wickets. Always asked Wasim and Waqar to go in and bowl quick and forget about the wides and no balls and the odd four ball. This is what I have been able to gauge listening to Wasim, Waqar, and Mushie talk about Imran's captaincy.

Definitely had an attacking instinct for sure. However, IMHO, he wasn’t the greatest tactician on the field. To his credit though, he realized this limitation and sought advice from Miandad, who was a better on-field tactician than him. I think it’s no coincidence that whenever his captaincy is mentioned, his leadership and great team achievements is emphasized. Of course, that doesn’t take away from his greatness as a Captain overall. He had excellent man-management skills, perhaps better than most in the history of any sport. He led from the front and didn’t ask his players to do anything that he didn’t expect from himself. I remember him recalling in an interview that he focused on improving his batting so he could confidently demand that others in the team do the same. And he succeeded! He instilled confidence in the team and become the de-facto coach for many of them (not to mention he was pretty much the selection committee by himself). With all due respect to Bagapath, whom I respect a lot, I think he’s severely under-rating Imran as a captain. To say he doesn’t even rate in the top 8 or so of all-time is quite astonishing to me.

 

[archie mac]

Definitely had an attacking instinct for sure. However, IMHO, he wasn’t the greatest tactician on the field. To his credit though, he realized this limitation and sought advice from Miandad, who was a better on-field tactician than him. I think it’s no coincidence that whenever his captaincy is mentioned, his leadership and great team achievements is emphasized. Of course, that doesn’t take away from his greatness as a Captain overall. He had excellent man-management skills, perhaps better than most in the history of any sport. He led from the front and didn’t ask his players to do anything that he didn’t expect from himself. I remember him recalling in an interview that he focused on improving his batting so he could confidently demand that others in the team do the same. And he succeeded! He instilled confidence in the team and become the de-facto coach for many of them (not to mention he was pretty much the selection committee by himself). With all due respect to Bagapath, whom I respect a lot, I think he’s severely under-rating Imran as a captain. To say he doesn’t even rate in the top 8 or so of all-time is quite astonishing to me.

Good post, I think you summed up Imran the captain well and think you answered the reasons I would not rate him in the top ten captains of all time

 

[Blaze 18]

From what I've read, Imran and Javed loathed each other. Yet, they put their personal differences aside for the greater good.

 

[smash84]

Good post, I think you summed up Imran the captain well and think you answered the reasons I would not rate him in the top ten captains of all time

 

[Fusion]

Good post, I think you summed up Imran the captain well and think you answered the reasons I would not rate him in the top ten captains of all time

Well...I was actually going for the opposite effect. So epic fail on my part then.

 

[smash84]

From what I've read, Imran and Javed loathed each other. Yet, they put their personal differences aside for the greater good.

loathed is probably a strong word but yes they didn't exactly love each other.

 

[Fusion]

loathed is probably a strong word but yes they didn't exactly love each other.

Most of the credit there has to go to Javed. He was the one who had to give up the captaincy to Imran. Only one of them could be the unquestioned leader of the team, and Javed realized that was Imran. Javed swallowed a lot more of his ego than Imran did in trying to work for the betterment of the team. Imran deserves some credit as well for working with Javed, who was in most ways the polar opposite of him. The autocratic Imran nevertheless had immense respect for him as a player and Javed was the only one that Imran discussed team strategy/selection/direction with.

There’s an incident that I read in someone's autobiography which recalls that after a particularly frustrating loss, the whole dressing room was quietly awaiting Imran to come in and explode. Sure enough, Imran came inside in a foul mood and began yelling out his frustrations to no one in particular. A young player then decided he wanted to talk to Imran (not quite sure why) and was stopped by Wasim Akram who stated: “Where are you going? Only Javed can talk to Imran right now”. And so it was. Javed went up to Imran, calmed him down, and started to go over the game plan for the next match.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

People can argue all they like but not having seen Sobers i can't make a fair judgement. Both were wonderful players who should be appreciated for the great players they were in their respective times. Trying to say one was better than the other is too difficult as they are from different generations and it is so hard to compare them.

 

[salman85]

Good post, I think you summed up Imran the captain well and think you answered the reasons I would not rate him in the top ten captains of all time

Somewhat disrespectful towards arguably the greatest captain the game saw.