Garry Sobers v Imran Khan,Test Cricket:Poll

[smash84]

not taking anything away from imran. but in all honesty, in tests alone, imran was one of the best captains of the 70s and 80s - and not THE greatest as some like to project.

in terms of galvanizing warring cliques within the establishment for a common cause, clive lloyd was his predecessor when he ended inter island rivalries and made west indians play for one team. also, allan border was as influential as imran was in nurturing and guiding young talents. in fact, since most of imran proteges ended up with murky futures in terms of shady deals with book makers, border can be deemed more successful in setting the path right for his juniors in the long run.

imran's crowning acheivements as test captain were him not losing a series to west indies and the first overseas series win against india. he deserves credit for them. but he is merely a predecessor to the gangulies and smiths of the next gen. elevating him to a higher plane and ranking him among the greatest test captains has always bothered me because that perception has set in only due to the world cup win which is not test cricket.

You do make a very valid point here but it is difficult to argue, and that is what I am arguing here, that he was not Pakistan's finest captain and that in terms of unearthing talent and nurturing them Kardar was not a better captain than Imran. Captaining Pakistan has always been a tough job and to say that things were not too difficult in Pakistan cricket before Imran took over is a travesty of facts. I mean how in the world Kardar (the captain) was instrumental in brining into the side and nurturing the talent of the 70s and 80s???? And if this is so why he is not given credit for bringing in the Imrans and the Miandads????

 

[honestbharani]

I said 'for me' mate. I'm having just as much certainity as millions of people(and experts) in world who make lists. Should've clarified the list was from the Bradman and post-Bradman era too as I have nfi of what happeened before that period.

@hb, Yeah go on, assume all my opinions are based purely on statistics take every oppurtunity to or at me. What you're doing is no worse than people posting 'back it up with stats ' everytime someone posts an opinion.

@Everyone, It's a discussion people, not a warfield, Let's spread the love 'kay?

Cheers.

I post them smileys at the opinions because what you have such a hard time in understanding is a very simple fact: Cricket stats, esp. averages, are an indicator of what the certain player did in the circumstances THAT HE FACED. To compare people JUST based on these stats is to take a HUGE leap of faith assumption that over a career, the two men being compared faced SAME circumstances (sorry, similar doesn't quite cut it because it is very obvious to anyone who has played the game for a reasonable length of time at a decent level that even under what can be called "similar" conditions, two players' performances may be impacted by other intangibles and hence vary wildly).. For people who keep harping on how much stats = facts, that is a pretty basic fact that you ALWAYS fail to acknowledge... As vcs said, stats are helpful to an extent to seperate the best from the great and the great from the good and the good from the ordinary and so on.. But whilst comparing within the best, stats just about never cut it as performance of players can vary a LOT under "similar" circumstances.. Cricket stats are an indicator of performance but NEVER the SOLE judge of performance.. The best examples would be Viru and Dravid getting MOM for their knocks over Sachin's weightier (in terms of runs alone) contributions... And when so many experts around the world feel Sobers' bowling was either about the same or greater than Imran's batting, I just do not see how someone can call them wrong and their opinions deluded just because he has access to statsguru filters... And 70-30 is a bit of a big win, ITBT... So it is pretty obvious that even CW doesn't agree with you..

 

[bagapath]

You do make a very valid point here but it is difficult to argue, and that is what I am arguing here, that he was not Pakistan's finest captain and that in terms of unearthing talent and nurturing them Kardar was not a better captain than Imran. Captaining Pakistan has always been a tough job and to say that things were not too difficult in Pakistan cricket before Imran took over is a travesty of facts. I mean how in the world Kardar (the captain) was instrumental in brining into the side and nurturing the talent of the 70s and 80s???? And if this is so why he is not given credit for bringing in the Imrans and the Miandads????

i did not mention kardar in my post anywhere, mate. all i am saying is that what imran did for pakistan cricket was great. but it is not something a lloyd didnt do for west indies or a border failed to do for australia. what he did was commendable, but even ganguly taking over an indian team after hansie gate and turning around its fortunes is equally commendable. all good captains are capable of setting their house right. imran was a fine captain and no one is disputing that.

but this alone cant make him the greatest test captain of all time - he could be, for pakistan. but there is no way his contribution to pakistan cricket is significantly superior to what worrell, benaud, lloyd, border, ranatunga, cronje and ganguly did for their respective teams. the fact that pakistan's new found discipline and focus under imran vanished after his retirement shows that his autocratic leadership had its own limitations. it is not as though a border-taylor-waugh-ponting kind of continuity or a viv richards following lloyd kind of consistency was achieved in pakistan cricket because of him. even the ganguly-dravid-kumble-dhoni school has achieved more success than imran's. he was good; may be very good. but that was it. his world cup win is making some believe that he was a special captain. i dont think so; especially when you are considering test cricket alone.

 

[smash84]

i did not mention kardar in my post anywhere, mate. all i am saying is that what imran did for pakistan cricket was great. but it is not something a lloyd didnt do for west indies or a border failed to do for australia. what he did was commendable, but even ganguly taking over an indian team after hansie gate and turning around its fortunes is equally commendable. all good captains are capable of setting their house right. imran was a fine captain and no one is disputing that.

For one thing I was replying to Sanz when you came in and it was Sanz who rated Kardar higher than Imran. The difference with Lloyd is definitely that Lloyd had some of the most talented players in the history of the world it is more like Steve Waugh's situation. The reason that Waugh and Lloyd get less points is that there team had tons of superstars who could be relied upon to win the game for their teams. Imran had none of them until the later part of his career. Waqar only came after 1989 and wasim in 1984 though talented still had a long way to go.

but this alone cant make him the greatest test captain of all time - he could be, for pakistan. but there is no way his contribution to pakistan cricket is significantly superior to what worrell, benaud, lloyd, border, ranatunga, cronje and ganguly did for their respective teams. the fact that pakistan's new found discipline and focus under imran vanished after his retirement shows that his autocratic leadership had its own limitations. it is not as though a border-taylor-waugh-ponting kind of continuity or a viv richards following lloyd kind of consistency was achieved in pakistan cricket because of him. even the ganguly-dravid-kumble-dhoni school has achieved more success than imran's. he was good; may be very good. but that was it. his world cup win is making some believe that he was a special captain. i dont think so; especially when you are considering test cricket alone.

Secondly, Australia have had a very strong domestic structure throughout their cricketing history. The first class players have a safety net and get paid reasonably well to go out and play cricket. These things don't happen in Pakistan. Imran did have an eye for talent and he could nurture the talent. Waqar, Anwar, Inzamam, Qadir, were in a manner of speaking picked off the street. Wasim (literally picked off the street) by Miandad credits all his training to Imran. The yorker was taught to the 2Ws by Imran. He taught them reverse swing too and Imran would weather all the storms off the field so that the team could play well as a unit. It is difficult to compare any other captaincy to Pakistan's captaincy. There are so many political influences that it is very difficult to run a team on merit. Imran himself made it into the side for the first time due in part to his cousins being very influential in the cricket board. He did lead Pakistan to series win in India, England, didn't lose at home (IIRC), almost beat the WI in WI, was the first one to bring in neutral umpires by insisting on it.

The only guy who can be compared is AB for building the Aussie team from scratch but AB lost a few Ashes series in the beginning so probably he is not as highly rated as some of the others. And whom amongst Lloyd, Waugh, AB, Ganguly, Cronje or Ranatunga played such a big part in the development of his players as did Imran????

 

[Prince EWS]

Imran Khan walks on water.
Tra la la la la la, la la la.

Haters can suck it.

 

[bagapath]

And whom amongst Lloyd, Waugh, AB, Ganguly, Cronje or Ranatunga played such a big part in the development of his players as did Imran????

all of them did a better job than him actually. because their teams continued to flourish even after their retirements. imran's just went back to chaos and confusion after he left the scene.

 

[smash84]

all of them did a better job than him actually. because their teams continued to flourish even after their retirements. imran's just went back to chaos and confusion after he left the scene.

Actually that has more to do with the presence of institutions and a more conducive environment and the presence of continuity in their respective jobs than anything else. That was very difficult to maintain in Pakistan than elsewhere..........So he did a much better job than the others with a weaker team and weak institutions.

 

[smash84]

Imran Khan walks on water.
Tra la la la la la, la la la.

Haters can suck it.

 

[Teja.]

Imran Khan walks on water.
Tra la la la la la, la la la.

Haters can suck it.

Gonna sig.

So awesome to have two HCSI quotes in my sig.

 

[bagapath]

Actually that has more to do with the presence of institutions and a more conducive environment and the presence of continuity in their respective jobs than anything else. That was very difficult to maintain in Pakistan than elsewhere..........So he did a much better job than the others with a weaker team and weak institutions.

no he did not. he worked with a weaker institution i agree. weaker team is debatable. ranatunga and border had weaker teams. better job he certainly didnt do. pakistan was the no.2 team under imran for a few years. lloyd brought together culturally different cricketers from different nations under one leadership and took them to the very top of the ladder and kept them there for a long long time. even ganguly's team toppled the no.1 team under his stewardship. imran never managed to achieve that. so you can say he did a better job than other regular captains. on par with most of the best ones, i agree. but definitely not as well as lloyd.

 

[vcs]

Imran Khan walks on water.
Tra la la la la la, la la la.

Haters can suck it.

AWTA, but Gary Sobers also could take off and fly when he felt like it. Not only that, he could run on water and swim on land just to give balance to his team's attack. Haters can suck it, etc.

 

[Teja.]

AWTA, but Gary Sobers also could take off and fly when he felt like it. Not only that, he could run on water and swim on land just to give balance to his team's attack. Haters can suck it, etc.

Imran Khan can squeeze apple juice out of an Iphone tbh.

 

[vcs]

Imran Khan can't even get his political party into power FFS.

 

[smash84]

no he did not. he worked with a weaker institution i agree. weaker team is debatable. ranatunga and border had weaker teams. better job he certainly didnt do. pakistan was the no.2 team under imran for a few years. lloyd brought together culturally different cricketers from different nations under one leadership and took them to the very top of the ladder and kept them there for a long long time. even ganguly's team toppled the no.1 team under his stewardship. imran never managed to achieve that. so you can say he did a better job than others. on par with most of them, i agree. but definitely not as well as lloyd.

Lloyd brought culturally different cricketers of the quality of MArshall, Holding ,Garner, Croft, Clarke, Richards, Greenidge, Haynes etc together.

Did Imran have comparable riches in any way?????

 

[smash84]

Imran Khan can't even get his political party into power FFS.

 

[Howe_zat]

Imran Khan once granted a genie three wishes.

Imran Khan was offered the lead in Mission Impossible, but they found they had to change it to Mission Accomplised.

Actions speak louder than words, but Imran Khan speaks louder than action.

...I'm done.

 

[bagapath]

Lloyd brought culturally different cricketers of the quality of MArshall, Holding ,Garner, Croft, Clarke, Richards, Greenidge, Haynes etc together.

Did Imran have comparable riches in any way?????

dude! clarke was no big deal compared to the other names. even haynes is not a bonafide great.

the point is that the inter island rivalries were really the bane of west indian cricket for decades. west indian team members belong to different nations. for one man to make them believe they all were one must have taken a huge huge effort and only a man of lloyd's stature is capable of it. just like it took an imran to handle the ego of pakistani cricketers.

but remember, the problem with pakistan was poverty and, as a result of that, corruption. west indies was also represented by poor nations with drug problems, crime and indiscipline (do you know pat patterson is selling coke on the beach?). occasionally a great captain like lloyd or imran comes along and changes the fortunes of such sports teams. history is full of such inspirational leaders. imran is one of them. because we are from this region, and you are from his country as well, it is possible to assume he is one of a kind. just like the sachin fanboys claiming he is better than bradman. but it is simply not true. due to proximity and tunnel vision we all tend to believe our childhood heroes are super humans. in reality, they very rarely are.

imran as a test captain did well with the given resources. he had a master-servant relationship with his team that produced results at times. but it did not change the fortunes of his team for a longer time, though. i will be happy to see his name among the best captains of all time. but if you rank him anywhere in the top 8, i am not going to agree with you.

 

[smash84]

. imran is one of them. because we are from this region, and you are from his country as well, it is possible to assume he is one of a kind. just like the sachin fanboys claiming he is better than bradman. but it is simply not true. due to proximity and tunnel vision we all tend to believe our childhood heroes are super humans. in reality, they very rarely are.

imran as a test captain did well with the given resources. he had a master-servant relationship with his team that produced results at times. but it did not change the fortunes of his team for a longer time, though. i will be happy to see his name among the best captains of all time. but if you rank him anywhere in the top 8, i am not going to agree with you.

You are free to disagree with mate but you still did not answer if Imran had riches comparable to Lloyd at his disposal. The answer is NO. Until 2007 Ricky Ponting had an even better test record than Steve Waugh because he had those kinds of players in his team. Similarly in Lloyd's case. Although credit must be given to Lloyd to unite the inter island factions (like Ghengis Khan united the mongols) he had much much more talented base at his disposal. Desmond haynes was not a great nor was sylvester clarke but comparing them to the likes of Sikandar Bakht and Ijaz Ahmed they were gods.

So feel free to disagree mate and feel free to not rank Imran even in your top 8 but rest assured that others may disagree with you and for good reason.

 

[smash84]

btw clarke went down to play in SA and quite destroyed the South Africans from what I read and he couldn't even find a place in that WI side.

 

[ankitj]

Imran Khan walks on water.
Tra la la la la la, la la la.

Haters can suck it.

AWTA, but Gary Sobers also could take off and fly when he felt like it. Not only that, he could run on water and swim on land just to give balance to his team's attack. Haters can suck it, etc.

Imran Khan can squeeze apple juice out of an Iphone tbh.

Imran Khan once granted a genie three wishes.

Imran Khan was offered the lead in Mission Impossible, but they found they had to change it to Mission Accomplised.

Actions speak louder than words, but Imran Khan speaks louder than action.

...I'm done.

Give it up already. Sobers and Imran may be great, but you guys are trying to elevate him to a class that belongs to Rajnikanth alone.