Garry Sobers v Imran Khan,Test Cricket:Poll

[Blaze 18]

i know that i certainly rate warne and murali above imran. and know others who do but i would not want to label it a consensus or even majority position. (actually, might be a good idea for a poll on here! might actually give it a shot).

regarding your statement that generally everyone picks sobers and imran in their world 11s, again, i'm afraid that just is not the case. for example, the cricinfo all time team exercise did not have imran there. there was another one a little while ago conducted by the times (and martin jenkins and woodcock and suchlike other luminaries - mind, i don't consider their world to be gospel), which actually had botham over imran. many of the old timers whom i have spoken to would have miller over imran in a shot. some would prefer a hadlee. but, u can bet that each and everyone of them had sobers.

and i wouldn't have imran in my world 11 either. but he would, just, make the second 11 over kallis and miller....on a good day!

so, it's not a case of splitting hairs at all.

That is because there was a limit on the number of all-rounders. I agree that Sobers would feature in everyone's team (I mentioned that he would be the second pick after Sir Donald Bradman for a lot of people). I have, however, seen a lot of people pick Imran in their all time sides - Richie Benaud comes to mind immediately.

I am not really arguing Imran > Sobers here. As aforesaid, I think Sobers is probably the best cricketer after Sir Donald Bradman (I have given my reasons for voting for Imran). But I don't quite agree with those saying Sobers is better, because he would make the top three batsmen of all time far more often than Imran would make the top three (fast) bowlers of all time.

As for Jacques Kallis - no comments!

 

[hang on]

i quite liked the benaud team. didn't agree with it completely but it was still an excellent team. i never managed to watch the video....perhaps one day.

if u are interested in such exercises, i urge u to have a look at geoff armstrong's selection of the 100 best cricketers, in which he chooses 9 world 11s - first 11, second 11 etc.

and it would relieve u to know that he did have imran in his first 11!

 

[Blaze 18]

Will do, thanks.

 

[smash84]

i quite liked the benaud team. didn't agree with it completely but it was still an excellent team. i never managed to watch the video....perhaps one day.

if u are interested in such exercises, i urge u to have a look at geoff armstrong's selection of the 100 best cricketers, in which he chooses 9 world 11s - first 11, second 11 etc.

and it would relieve u to know that he did have imran in his first 11!

Who is Geoff Armstrong?

 

[hang on]

well known australian cricket historian/author. the chap who speaks at times on the cricinfo legends of cricket pastiches.

anyways, here is a link that gives u an idea of the way he divvied up the top 100:

St George's Park - Cricket‘s Greatest of the Greatest

 

[Blaze 18]

Some nice teams there. My all time eleven* would look something like this :

1) Jack Hobbs
2) Sunil Gavaskar
3) Donald Bradman (captain)
4) Brian Lara
5) Vivian Richards
6) Garry Sobers
7) Adam Gilchrist (wicketkeeper)
8) Imran Khan (vice-captain)
9) Richard Hadlee
10)Shane Warne/Muttiah Muralitharan
11)Malcom Marshall

* subject to change

 

[smash84]

Some nice teams there. My all time eleven* would look something like this :

1) Jack Hobbs
2) Sunil Gavaskar
3) Donald Bradman (captain)
4) Brian Lara
5) Vivian Richards
6) Garry Sobers
7) Adam Gilchrist (wicketkeeper)
8) Imran Khan (vice-captain)
9) Richard Hadlee
10)Shane Warne/Muttiah Muralitharan
11)Malcom Marshall

* subject to change

Awesome team

 

[Blaze 18]

Awesome team

Thanks dude.

 

[smash84]

Thanks dude.

Not as good as the Tiger Kings XI though

 

[Blaze 18]

Not as good as the Tiger Kings XI though

Haha, I agree.

 

[Sanz]

No. You might want to read the book Imran Khan by Christopher Sandford. At one point in time Imran was leading a team with 5 or 6 ex-captains. The turmoil in Pak cricket has been there before as well as after Imran. Please don't start revising history over here. Imran was far and away the best captain Pak ever had.

Comments like this are the reason why I don't come here on this forum and do not indulge in any discussion. First of all it is a patronizing comment and secondly it is misquoting me, nowhere did I say that Imran wasn't Pakistan's best captain.

But now that you bring up that point, I have to say that No Imran wasn't the greatest Pakistani captain IMO. He is well below AH Kardar, everything, IMO, Imran did as a captain was taken from the Kardar book of Leadership.

 

[Fusion]

Comments like this are the reason why I don't come here on this forum and do not indulge in any discussion. First of all it is a patronizing comment and secondly it is misquoting me, nowhere did I say that Imran wasn't Pakistan's best captain.

But now that you bring up that point, I have to say that No Imran wasn't the greatest Pakistani captain IMO. He is well below AH Kardar, everything, IMO, Imran did as a captain was taken from the Kardar book of Leadership.

Sanz, even if we agree that he modeled himself after Kardar, you have to admit that he achieved far greater than his mentor right? Obviously Kardar’s team was just starting out in cricket so they couldn’t possibly have the same level of results as the established team that Imran took over. However, we can only compare the results that they both achieved. Imran as captain never lost against arguably the greatest team of all-time. Imran’s team won against Pakistan’s arch rival India. Imran’s team won the WC. No other Pakistani captain can claim similar successes IMO. I greatly admire Kardar’s contributions. He is essentially father of Pakistan cricket. But it’s not a knock against him to say that Imran was the better captain.

 

[Howe_zat]

Some nice teams there. My all time eleven* would look something like this :

1) Jack Hobbs
2) Sunil Gavaskar
3) Donald Bradman (captain)
4) Brian Lara
5) Vivian Richards
6) Garry Sobers
7) Adam Gilchrist (wicketkeeper)
8) Imran Khan (vice-captain)
9) Richard Hadlee
10)Shane Warne/Muttiah Muralitharan
11)Malcom Marshall

* subject to change

Awesome team

Indeed it is. A rarity to find someone who agrees with me on the bowling lineup, I'm with you from #6 down. Changes I'd make:

- Trumper for Gavaskar.
- Sachin over Richards. Yeah, go ahead and abuse me.

 

[marc71178]

Out of interest, I'd love to know how Imran single-handedly winning the World Cup is relevant to this poll?

 

[smash84]

Comments like this are the reason why I don't come here on this forum and do not indulge in any discussion. First of all it is a patronizing comment and secondly it is misquoting me, nowhere did I say that Imran wasn't Pakistan's best captain.

But now that you bring up that point, I have to say that No Imran wasn't the greatest Pakistani captain IMO. He is well below AH Kardar, everything, IMO, Imran did as a captain was taken from the Kardar book of Leadership.

Sorry pal. I thought you were accusing me and some of the other posters here for indulging in revisionism so I think I hit back inappropriately. However I would like to suggest that you do read Christopher Sandford's book on Imran and you will realize that things were quite unwell in Pakistan cricket when Imran took over.

Although it interests me greatly how he is "well below" AH Kardar as captain?

 

[Sanz]

Sanz, even if we agree that he modeled himself after Kardar, you have to admit that he achieved far greater than his mentor right? Obviously Kardar’s team was just starting out in cricket so they couldn’t possibly have the same level of results as the established team that Imran took over. However, we can only compare the results that they both achieved. Imran as captain never lost against arguably the greatest team of all-time. Imran’s team won against Pakistan’s arch rival India. Imran’s team won the WC. No other Pakistani captain can claim similar successes IMO. I greatly admire Kardar’s contributions. He is essentially father of Pakistan cricket. But it’s not a knock against him to say that Imran was the better captain.

I do not want to knock Imran's record as captaincy but stating that Imran's Team never lost to the Great West Indies team is correct only because his team never played against them. Imran never captained against Lloyd's WI team, the first time his team played against WI was in October 1986. And I do not know what to make of the world cup record in the Kardar Vs. Imran discussion.

I have no problem with your opinion that Imran was a better captain than Kardar, but it is a matter of opinion not a fact. Kardar never lost a test match in Pakistan, won against every country in their turf. He built Pakistan Cricket and If Imran gets the credit for the talents of the likes of Akram and Inzi, it is Kardar who should get the credit for the riches of Pakistan cricket during Imran/Javed era.

While Imran may have achieved more than KArdar (according to your own definition), One really has to look at the context of those achievement rather than simply looking at the statistics. And I have no doubt in my mind that Kardar's achievement outweigh Imran's.

 

[smash84]

I do not want to knock Imran's record as captaincy but stating that Imran's Team never lost to the Great West Indies team is correct only because his team never played against them. Imran never captained against Lloyd's WI team, the first time his team played against WI was in October 1986. And I do not know what to make of the world cup record in the Kardar Vs. Imran discussion.

I have no problem with your opinion that Imran was a better captain than Kardar, but it is a matter of opinion not a fact. Kardar never lost a test match in Pakistan, won against every country in their turf. He built Pakistan Cricket and If Imran gets the credit for the talents of the likes of Akram and Inzi, it is Kardar who should get the credit for the riches of Pakistan cricket during Imran/Javed era.

While Imran may have achieved more than KArdar (according to your own definition), One really has to look at the context of those achievement rather than simply looking at the statistics. And I have no doubt in my mind that Kardar's achievement outweigh Imran's.

BTW Imran's team did play against Viv's team and Viv is perhaps a handful of captains who never lost a test series because his team too was that good. Gave the opposition a real thrashing too.

And how exactly does Kardar get the credit for the "riches of Pakistan cricket" during the Imran/Javed era given that he last played a test for Pakistan in 1958????

He was a good captain but otherwise he only probably matches Imran in glamor. His own performance leaves much to be desired. A batting average of less than 24 and a bowling average of 45 with a SR of 129 ..........A Mike Brearly before Mike Brearly I should think.....

 

[Sanz]

BTW Imran's team did play against Viv's team and Viv is perhaps a handful of captains who never lost a test series because his team too was that good. Gave the opposition a real thrashing too.

First of all Viv's WI team wasn't the great invincible WI team. Secondly I dont remember the thrashing that Imran's team gave to Viv's WI team because they never won a series against them. And if you really want to get into statistics against Viv's team, Then how about this for a fact :- Imran captained in 5 test matches against IVA Richards' team, he lost 2 and won 1.

And how exactly does Kardar get the credit for the "riches of Pakistan cricket" during the Imran/Javed era given that he last played a test for Pakistan in 1958????
He was a good captain but otherwise he only probably matches Imran in glamor. His own performance leaves much to be desired. A batting average of less than 24 and a bowling average of 45 with a SR of 129 ..........A Mike Brearly before Mike Brearly I should think.....

I am not going to educate you on the history of your own country's cricket, if you don't know that then it is your problem. I feel sorry for your ignorance and I am not even going to try to put up an argument against such ignorance.

 

[smash84]

First of all Viv's WI team wasn't the great invincible WI team. Secondly I dont remember the thrashing that Imran's team gave to Viv's WI team because they never won a series against them. And if you really want to get into statistics against Viv's team, Then how about this for a fact :- Imran captained in 5 test matches against IVA Richards' team, he lost 2 and won 1.
.

IIRC Imran and Viv's teams clashed in 1986,1988 and 1991. All the series were tied 1-1. Now if Viv didn't play in one of those series is another matter but the WI team of even that time is rated pretty highly by most. Especially if you consider it in relation to the Pakistan side of that time which was not full of superstars.

I am not going to educate you on the history of your own country's cricket, if you don't know that then it is your problem. I feel sorry for your ignorance and I am not even going to try to put up an argument against such ignorance.

Oh and now you are not being patronizing and condescending? Of course you cannot educate me on the cricket history of my cricket because you just like to indulge in revisionist history and while you yourself probably don't know what was happening. Talking about Kardar for bringing in players of 70s and 80s when Kardar last played for Pakistan in 1958? Kardar was later on an administrator and not a captain who picked the players for his team. So please stop making noises when you have been exposed. Don't start cooking up things without backing them up with facts.

 

[bagapath]

not taking anything away from imran. but in all honesty, in tests alone, imran was one of the best captains of the 70s and 80s - and not THE greatest as some like to project.

in terms of galvanizing warring cliques within the establishment for a common cause, clive lloyd was his predecessor when he ended inter island rivalries and made west indians play for one team. also, allan border was as influential as imran was in nurturing and guiding young talents. in fact, since most of imran proteges ended up with murky futures in terms of shady deals with book makers, border can be deemed more successful in setting the path right for his juniors in the long run.

imran's crowning acheivements as test captain were him not losing a series to west indies and the first overseas series win against india. he deserves credit for them. but he is merely a predecessor to the gangulies and smiths of the next gen. elevating him to a higher plane and ranking him among the greatest test captains has always bothered me because that perception has set in only due to the world cup win which is not test cricket.