Steve Waugh v Shane Warne

[howardj]

For mine, Waugh may not have been great tactically, but that's only a small part of being captain. Man management, the ability to get the best out of fringe players as well as established players, the ability to preside over a co-ordinated happy tour, and conducting yourself in a dignified manner, and sending out the right body language and signals...are all qualities/things that a captain needs.

I think Warne gets rated a great or potentially great captain because he sets aggressive/funky field placings and always attacks. In a sense, that's easy.

 

[cnerd123]

I think Warne gets rated a great or potentially great captain because he sets aggressive/funky field placings and always attacks. In a sense, that's easy.

No, it's not that simple...

He reads batsmen very well. He reads the game well. He sets fields and changes his bowlers as per the situation. It's just that if in a situation, if he can choose to attack or defend, he'll choose what is most likely to get him a wicket. Sometimes that will include drying up runs, which he'll do. It's not like he'll load the slips or have a ton of close in fielders and look for wickets. He plays it smart.

 

[TumTum]

For mine, Waugh may not have been great tactically, but that's only a small part of being captain. Man management, the ability to get the best out of fringe players as well as established players, the ability to preside over a co-ordinated happy tour, and conducting yourself in a dignified manner, and sending out the right body language and signals...are all qualities/things that a captain needs.

I think Warne gets rated a great or potentially great captain because he sets aggressive/funky field placings and always attacks. In a sense, that's easy.

Awta, after a while you can sense things getting ugly in the camp if he was captain due to either his aggressiveness backfiring or his off-field antics.

 

[Furball]

I'm a Warne fanboy, but from a objective point of view you could say Warne would have definitely had his moments as a captain.

The problems would arise from if he could get the whole team behind him. He managed that with Hampshire and RR, but in both cases it was probably more due to the fact that he was a Legend and hardly anyone is going to raise issues with that, especially when he was so enthusiastic.

But in the middle of his career, with his off-field issues and some as experienced, if not more experienced, players in his side, there could be problems. Could he manage all those big-name stars? Who knows. But it's doubtful, Warne's a greate people person but the stuff he did off the pitch could easily have lost him respect.

Tactically...I have only seen him in action for RR - faithfully for the last 3 seasons, nearly every match - and yes, attacking is his main mode. He doesn't see the point in restricting runs unless doing so leads to a wicket. That's an admirable trait, and it works well in T20s. He has also a couple of times (the match against Mumbai in season 1 comes to mind) played defensively with bowling plans to get the match into the final few overs, where they have the best chance of a win, rather than going gun-ho.

I don't doubt he'd be a fine FC captain. He seems quite brilliant tactically, reads batsmen very well, and he does all the basic obvious moves right, with the odd piece of brilliance here and there. Does he make the best of resources he has (ala Fleming?). IPL 1 would suggest so, as would his success with Hampshire. Can he lead from the front? He certainly seems the sort. Does he get the best out of the players? Everyone who has played under him says he has.

But would he have been a success leading Australia? Doubtful, considering his offield problems, the big names in the side, and that he wouldn't have the experience he had in the Hampshire/RR stint.

But like I said, he would have had his moments.

Would have been a great captain in his final years too.

I think Chris Tremlett, and one or two other players at Hampshire, would disagree with you on that one.

I think Warne would have struggled with players who have a vastly different personality to himself - I can only really see him succeeding with an all time great side (which he would have had had he taken over from Mark Taylor until his retirement) or with a bunch of young players who'll look up to him and hang on his every word.

I don't think he'd be the man for a middle of the road team like Australia are now.

 

[Burgey]

We'll just never know. It's fun to suppose though.

I wonder how Waugh would have gone with his more introverted style leading a middling side like we have now? I mean they were both blokes who could inspire with their deeds on the field. Waugh seems more like an AB type of leader though, interms of deeds doing the talking, whereas Warne is, well, Warne.

 

[Furball]

We'll just never know. It's fun to suppose though.

I wonder how Waugh would have gone with his more introverted style leading a middling side like we have now? I mean they were both blokes who could inspire with their deeds on the field. Waugh seems more like an AB type of leader though, interms of deeds doing the talking, whereas Warne is, well, Warne.

Gut feeling says he'd be doing better than Ponting, as I think Waugh seemed to get that little something extra out of his players.

               Runs     Waugh    Ponting    

RT Ponting   11,154     64.07      51.51
ML Hayden     8.364     67.29      46.03
JL Langer     6,777     48.38      48.06
AC Gilchrist  5,570     56.92      40.26
MJ Clarke     4,697       -        45.48
MEK Hussey    4,605       -        51.74
SM Katich     4,188     67.50      44.00
DR Martyn     4,089     47.84      45.11
SR Waugh      3,714     52.30        -
ME Waugh      2,189     36.16        -
SK Warne      1,914     20.79      20.83
SR Watson     1,870       -        41.55
BJ Haddin     1,869       -        40.63
MJ Slater     1,797     38.97        -
DS Lehmann    1,570     63.91      43.30

             Wickets    Waugh    Ponting

SK Warne         393    26.57      24.34
GD McGrath       361    20.06      21.69
B Lee            310    30.90      30.12
JN Gillespie     220    25.67      32.61
MG Johnson       177      -        29.43
SCG MacGill      161    30.73      29.98
SR Clark          94      -        23.86
MS Kasprowicz     75    43.88      32.84

While I admit that the above table isn't scientific and too much shouldn't be read into it, particularly as the figures under Ponting includes the decline of a large number of players before they retired. But particularly looking at the batting figures, there's quite a huge gap for a few of them, although interestingly Ponting seems to get more from his bowlers, with the exception of Gillespie.

 

[Burgey]

Stuey Clark. Of all the injuries to all the bowlers, his hurt the most from an Australian POV.

 

[howardj]

No, it's not that simple...

He reads batsmen very well. He reads the game well. He sets fields and changes his bowlers as per the situation. It's just that if in a situation, if he can choose to attack or defend, he'll choose what is most likely to get him a wicket. Sometimes that will include drying up runs, which he'll do. It's not like he'll load the slips or have a ton of close in fielders and look for wickets. He plays it smart.

We know that because we hear him commentate, and he has massive public exposure. For mine, if you put SWaugh in the commentary box and listened to him run the rule over players, you'd be pretty impressed too.

Anyway, I just think Waugh cops a bit of a bum rap in the captaincy stakes. For mine, he took the same group of guys more or less as Taylor had, and turned them into a rampant killing machine. That dramatic improvement may not have been tactics based, but it does come under the broad umbrella of captaincy; of leading.

 

[robelinda]

Steve Waugh also had a tremendous impact on guys like Hayden, Langer, Kasper, Bichel for instance. When Hayden was dropped in 1997 Waugh called him and said dont worry, you'll end your career with a 50+ test average. Massive boost for Haydos. Taylor and Hayden didnt get on at all, same for Kasper and Taylor. Remember when Kasper didnt even get a bowl in a test innings under Taylor, selectors had no choice but to drop him. Of course every captain has his favourite players, Warne has been huge in several players careers, Watson, Tremlett, even Graeme Smith for the Royals. Ponting has had a huge impact on guys like Symonds too.

 

[smash84]

Steve Waugh also had a tremendous impact on guys like Hayden, Langer, Kasper, Bichel for instance. When Hayden was dropped in 1997 Waugh called him and said dont worry, you'll end your career with a 50+ test average. Massive boost for Haydos. Taylor and Hayden didnt get on at all, same for Kasper and Taylor. Remember when Kasper didnt even get a bowl in a test innings under Taylor, selectors had no choice but to drop him. Of course every captain has his favourite players, Warne has been huge in several players careers, Watson, Tremlett, even Graeme Smith for the Royals. Ponting has had a huge impact on guys like Symonds too.

Rob when is your latest round of uploads coming up?

 

[robelinda]

When this flooding crisis has stopped. Whole street and front yard is underwater still. No time for uploads just now.

 

[vcs]

Stuey Clark. Of all the injuries to all the bowlers, his hurt the most from an Australian POV.

Agreed..

 

[Maximus0723]

As a captain, being a good leader is more important trait then being a good tactician.

 

[howardj]

Steve Waugh also had a tremendous impact on guys like Hayden, Langer, Kasper, Bichel for instance. When Hayden was dropped in 1997 Waugh called him and said dont worry, you'll end your career with a 50+ test average. Massive boost for Haydos. Taylor and Hayden didnt get on at all, same for Kasper and Taylor. Remember when Kasper didnt even get a bowl in a test innings under Taylor, selectors had no choice but to drop him. Of course every captain has his favourite players, Warne has been huge in several players careers, Watson, Tremlett, even Graeme Smith for the Royals. Ponting has had a huge impact on guys like Symonds too.

Good post.

Being a Hayden fanatic at the time, I rather enjoyed the fact that Tubby was sent down to the sheds to interview Hayden after posting 380 in 2003. Humble pie much?

 

[robelinda]

Yes that was funny. Take that Tubs!

Absolutely nothing is written about Taylor's shortcoming's as a skipper, but they are there. No captain is perfect I guess. I'm a big Taylor fan, mostly as a batsman to be honest, I rate him very highly but not as highly as others it seems. It was a great era to witness though.

 

[Top_Cat]

tbh, was Taylor specifically not onside with Haydos? Word at the time was that Tubs just didn't rate anyone north of his border.

 

[robelinda]

Yeah true, especially Stuart Law too. Might have been Law's own fault, word was he was quite the douche.

 

[Ikki]

tbh, was Taylor specifically not onside with Haydos? Word at the time was that Tubs just didn't rate anyone north of his border.

Hayden also made the mistake of commenting on Taylor's down-turn in form, when trying to justify his own claim, which made him unpopular as well.

 

[smash84]

Good post.

Being a Hayden fanatic at the time, I rather enjoyed the fact that Tubby was sent down to the sheds to interview Hayden after posting 380 in 2003. Humble pie much?

poetic justice i should say

 

[cnerd123]

We know that because we hear him commentate, and he has massive public exposure. For mine, if you put SWaugh in the commentary box and listened to him run the rule over players, you'd be pretty impressed too.

I'm basing that statement over watching him bowl and captain RR, not commentary. Although that pretty much proved what was known of him, his brilliant mind.

Most commentators sound knowledgeable, it's easier when you're sitting up in the commentary box to analyse things.